Surviving off other people

[MountainBear]

Yeah, I thought it was an interesting phenomenon that people were talking about stealing from their brethren. I want to survive and take care of my family just as much as the next man, but I am not willing to compromise my morals and principles to do it. And if I take care to prepare for unforeseen future events, I shouldn't have to. Cultivate mutually beneficial relationships with friends, stockpile supplies, food, water, just be generally prepared.

I do not wear a foil hat. Never have. But I do live in an area that has and probably will again in my lifetime see hard times from economy, wildfire, earthquake, and volcanic eruptions. If I take care to be prepared, I should not have to take from others to survive...

 

[Father of four]

As I posted in another thread. My family and I are trying to find a place to move out and away from Portland. If and when the SHTF we would like to be in a smaller community that will barter with us. People who rob and steal will get away with it for awhile. But they will get what the deserve in the end. We will barter and help the community of other people. Not be selfish and steal from the people like the people that run this country has.

 

[Redcap]

I cannot understand those that would rather steal and poach from another enclave. One would think it far preferable to work with and integrate into another small group of survivors, rather than make enemies of them.

 

[coctailer]

People who rob and steal will get away with it for awhile.

I would wager that they would get killed on their first attempt.

 

[MountainBear]

I would wager that they would get killed on their first attempt.

I expect that depends on how poorly they choose their target. If they pick people as up-prepared as they are and they might get away with it. Pick someone ready, willing, and able to defend what's theirs, and you're right, once will be all they get.

 

[coctailer]

I expect that depends on how poorly they choose their target. If they pick people as up-prepared as they are and they might get away with it. Pick someone ready, willing, and able to defend what's theirs, and you're right, once will be all they get.

I think most people under-estimate the resolve of the American Parent.

Try to take the food from even an un-armed mother or father and you may be surprised how far they will go to keep their children fed.

Adrenaline and a kitchen knife. They surely can take a few 9mm rounds before they get close enough to fatally stab a person.

 

[accurateone]

What would precipitate this? Earth quake/Mt Hood errupting, Columbia river damn break, financial melt down?! Then what, if the Chinese came to "give aid", (A trojan Horse attack), The russians took out N.Y. City, the the disgruntelled south of our borders, came too, to claim that which was there before the pilgrims... What if it was 3-5-maybe 8 nations that hate us? Now where do you go. If you haven't already gone it's probably to late. If you don't prepare BEFORE disaster it's too LATE.
Things to consider even if you're bugged in with fuel : 1 First Aide & medicine, 2: Food & water, 3: Ham radio, 4efensive tools, 5:Knowledge of & communication w/ like minded. and most importantly your faith in God & your Family & friends.
Might be a good idea to keep a copy of Bible, Constitution, & Bill of Rights if you intend to rebuild correctly. go here to get food stocks www.grocerypantry.com

 

[EZLivin]

Things to consider even if you're bugged in with fuel : 1 First Aide & medicine, 2: Food & water, 3: Ham radio, 4efensive tools, 5:Knowledge of & communication w/ like minded. and most importantly your faith in God & your Family & friends. www.grocerypantry.com

Here's a question. Hopefully not too far off topic. What means of communication and information gathering do you all anticipate relying on in SHTF scenarios? Cell? (seems to work in Afghan and Pakistani caves), Ham? (not many people have Ham access), CB? (I like them when on the road), or for listening-only Shortwave, or just don't worry about it and believe what you hear on the radio?

 

[Natty Bumpo]

Among the men that I can say I have had the privilege of knowing was one who had actually survived an SHTF situation.

WW2. The Nazis overrun Holland. My friend (now deceased) was an very young officer at the time in the Dutch army (which lasted a matter of a couple of days against the Blitzkrieg). He manages to evade capture.

He hides out among friends in the countryside until ultimately discovered. So he bugged out. The Weirmacht rules the entire country. Cities and the countryside. The Dutch people were forced to provide to the German war effort with their agricultural production. The Germans take the majority of what was grown and produced and leave the populace with just barely enough to keep producing. This continues until Liberation.

He told me that after awhile, the better prepared people (with food stocks and other preparations rat-holed) were ultimately robbed by their hungrier neighbors. City and country alike. It all evens out in a matter of mere months and everyone ends up in more or less the same deprived condition.

(Those found by the Germans with weapons were executed, plain and simple, then and there, on the spot.) The "Resistance" in most of occupied Europe was mostly symbolic and not of particular military consequence. But it did keep the spirit of freedom alive.

He said that those with food simply "looked healthier" than those without....and that is how they were identified by their bretheren as targets for robbery. And robbed they were. By their neighbors. By their friends. Either forcefully or usually more often, by stealth.

 

[EZLivin]

Among the men that I can say I have had the privilege of knowing was one who had actually survived an SHTF situation

Extremely interesting. The Blitzkrieg, and what unfolded thereafter, really was the quintessential SHTF event. So much can be learned from it.

 

[Boats]

I would wager that they [looters/thieves/robbers] would get killed on their first attempt.

Many looters/robbers would indeed get wiped out in short order. The ones to worry about are the ones who don't.

In less civilized times there have always been powerful brigands, pirates, warlords, criminal organizations, rebel "shadow governments." etc., that became powerful enough to rival the power of one or even more nation-states. These "alternate lifestyle organizations" are usually led early on by either apex predators who have risen to the top in a very violent "profession" or charismatic leaders who can inspire violence on their behalf and who are tremendously skillful at manipulating people to maintain their leadership.

Should one of these arise among an area of "producers" the response of the yeoman farmers is going to be difficult to effectively turn towards proactive or preemptive defense of the collective good rather than towards paying a "protection tax." Most will not fight--it's human nature. The path of least resistance will be to duck heads and pay.

And that is exactly how it is speculated that feudalism started in the areas that were once working political sub-units of the Western Roman Empire after the collapse of the Imperial power and economy. One went from producers paying a "legitimate" tax that was ideally spread far and wide to reduce its individual impact, to a rather hefty and localized "protection fee" paid to the local strongman to defend what was left from his peers nearby. A very similar phenomenon played itself out in feudal Japan too. Thing is that with the fee comes power, the power to enslave.

The real problem with supercriminal or hyper charismatic types is that some one of them will prove to be exceptional at it via attrition and then seek to legitimate their accrued power. It was ever thus with rare exceptions like the federation of cantons in Switzerland, which was only really possible via geographic isolation that most of the PNW does not enjoy.

The "Wild West" may have featured "local justice" and whatnot, but always lurking in the background, especially post 1812, when the domestic professionalization of officers began to take shape, was the ultimate security of settlers backed by the presence of the U.S. Army, who were dotted in forts all over the map along trade and migration routes, first into the southeast and then on into the Louisiana Purchase and beyond.

If you were out ahead of that security presence you were taking your life into your hands leaving any collective settlement or traveling group.

In a "hard collapse," where the power of the state wholly disintegrates into nothing, someone will organize to fill that void and they usually won't be subtle or benign about it.

A hard collapse won't be the Wild West, it will be the chaos of feudal city-state Italy, replete with continual low level strife occasionally flaring into larger conflicts, large companies of mercenaries, weak or non-existent security along trade routes, organized banditry, and serfdom.

In the state of nature, no doubt the serfs started off as free men, but they couldn't maintain that status without a legal infrastructure in place to protect and respect that status. Winners write the rules for good or ill. Most folks, by nature, are ill-equipped to "die for something" as nebulous as freedom or property rights when their lives are under constant threat from a lack of physical security. Most will knuckle under to a man or organization who fills the security void, even if they created it or exploited it in the first place.

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

I'd have my set of morals, but I'd also be an opportunist if the situation arose.
I am prepared however, I have my Bug-Out-Bags as well as my makeshift survival Bunker ..(Yes, my garage.)


I'd like to take the high road in that situation, but I have got to think for my safety and livelihood as well as my group.

I'd better be ready to take from you than have YOU be ready to take from me.
I'm sure I would barter 90% of the time if I could, But if the need arose, my long distance marksmanship would play a key role in my survival.
I know we'd all like to be civil in a post-apocalyptic scenario, but there are those out there that wouldn't abide by any "Moral Laws", best to be done with them than have them do it to someone else.

 

[unionguy]

Your moral code is your moral code, or you don't have a moral code--only a set of words convenient to your given situation.

For example, it's either better to die on your feet than live like a slave on your knees...or it isn't.

It's either wrong to steal another man's food or it isn't.

Yes, I'll defend my family from killers and thieves, but I won't become one just to survive. There are more important things than physical survival. My moral code is one of them.

 

[Father of four]

I agree Unionguy.

 

[MountainBear]

Yep, agreed also.

I always like the movie The Postman with Kevin Costner. Besides not being overly outlandish (no aliens, invasions, etc), it made some interesting comments on society. The fame comment when confronted with Tom Petty in Bridge City. How things change with the scenario. A celebrity whose fame and stature don't matter anymore. Also when he takes the mailbag and uses it to get fed, technically, he's stealing. Then he goes to steal the horse early in the film. By the end of the film a man with a very loose moral code has become the definition of moral outrage and character.

We never know how we will react to a scenario until we are faced with it. But we can prepare ourselves mentally and otherwise so we are less likely to need to make tough choices...

 

[Gunner3456]

Here's a question. Hopefully not too far off topic. What means of communication and information gathering do you all anticipate relying on in SHTF scenarios? Cell? (seems to work in Afghan and Pakistani caves), Ham? (not many people have Ham access), CB? (I like them when on the road), or for listening-only Shortwave, or just don't worry about it and believe what you hear on the radio?

If you don't know, there are wind up radios that recharge their batteries. Some will even charge extra rechargeable batteries for flashlights, etc. There are a lot of wind up options. Start with google and Radio Shack.

As for stealing to survive, I agree with Unionguy.

Also, just for me, down deep you are what you are. 100 years from now I will have other things to think about and what's happening here is just temporary anyway.

 

[PinkhamR]

So how does foraging fit in to thee scenario?

 

[MountainBear]

Foraging implies scavenging supplies that are without owner. We are specifically referring to looting or stealing in this instance. Several posts recent to when I started this thread had posters implying that their might or willingness to employ that might might be used to take what others had...

 

[EZLivin]

If you don't know, there are wind up radios that recharge their batteries. Some will even charge extra rechargeable batteries for flashlights, etc. There are a lot of wind up options. Start with google and Radio Shack

I do have one of those (has am, fm, and some shortwave bands). What I was mostly wondering about was reliable 2-way communication. Wish I had a HAM license, but one more hobby just isn't in the plans. I suppose the only alternative to HAM would be CB, but with CB the range is obviously an issue.

 

[powersbj]

I do have one of those (has am, fm, and some shortwave bands). What I was mostly wondering about was reliable 2-way communication. Wish I had a HAM license, but one more hobby just isn't in the plans. I suppose the only alternative to HAM would be CB, but with CB the range is obviously an issue.

Nothing says you cant own one or listen on one, you just cant transmit.