Surviving off other people

[MountainBear]

This should be a particularly lively topic, but worth it anyway. Lets not get uncivil and have this thread closed.

In this day and age, its not all that hard to believe that someday, we may actually have to use the preparations we make. Whether this be our bug-out bags, stock-piles of supplies (food, water, ammo), or evacuation plans, its possible we could have to use them. While it is always possible to have the Red Dawn or social collapse scenario, there's a more likely threat of natural disaster (volcano eruptions, forest fire, floods, etc for us here in the NW). We may have rolling black-outs, temporary loss of power from a terrorist attack, or any number of other things that would cause us to be self-reliant for a period of time.

There are a lot of threads going on about responses to specific threats and problems. After reading people's responses, it is disheartening to see how many people plan to rely on stealing from others to survive. Whether its by looting, stealing, or mooching, it still seems wrong. I'm not talking about surviving at a common location where many people will retreat to and live communally. I'm talking about people talking about poaching others livestock, stealing/looting from stores, etc.

Obviously if you are talking about doing these things, you recognize a need to be prepared. But since you recognize the need, why do you not also do the work to prepare yourself? Why are you planning/relying on taking what others have to survive?

I guess all I can say is that if you plan on stealing/looting/poaching, you better hope you're better armed and a better shot than the people you plan on violating. Why would you rely on this as part of your families plans? Enlighten me, argue with me, agree with me, but someone explain this disturbing trend.

Read More

 

[Just Jim]

The stealing and looting has been done since man came along. Now it is done legally and it's called taxes. People are more than willing to steal from those who have worked hard to gain more and now days they will vote to make it happen. Society can't go on like this as soon all the money will be worthless.

Consider me a person who will defend my hard work against looters, both legal looters and illegal.

jj

 

[Cougfan2]

I'm not a phsycologist, but I tend to believe that while some people in the back of their mind can envision that scenario, the act of making the preparations for such a scenario brings it closer to reality for them. This scares some people. It's like having symptoms that you might have some kind of cancer, but not going to the Dr. because you don't want to find out the truth.

Other people are of the mindset that we live in an uncertain world and prepare for a disaster with the mindset that they'll be pleasantly surprised if it never happens.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not as prepared as I'd like to be.

I also think that as our society has changed from a more self reliant culture to the culture of immediate gratification. We have gotten used to just being able to go get whatever we want or need at a moments notice with no need to plan ahead.

 

[NWPilgrim]

Yes, planning to loot is no more of a survival "plan" than it is a plan for prosperity in normal times. It usually ends badly for the looter.

However, I think there is a niche in that area to keep in mind but not depend on for planning. It is such a gray area in terms of decision making and timing that i haven't bothered putting thought to it much. This is more along the lines of scavenging, or salvaging, abandoned items.

Say there is a massive earthquake and you manage to survive the initial devastation, but 1/4th of the population and businesses are wiped out. Maybe your preps are buried under tons of debris or pooled rainwater. At some point I think it makes sense to make use of materials you can scavenge from abandoned buildings or debris piles even though they may belong to someone else.

I don't think you can really anticipate what or where you could do some salvaging, but it would be something to have in your awareness after the event to keep an eye out for if you've lost your preps or are in a temporary location separated from your preps.

And I am not talking about "salvaging" someones jewelry or silverware. More like tarp material, cans of food, lumber, water bucket, shovel or something like that. I suppose in a real apocalypse scenario in which a large percentage of people die and society has collapsed and you are away from your home/retreat, then perhaps you would have to consider occupying an abandoned building or house, with the realization that if the owners or their relatives return you will vacate immediately. You exchange your good stewardship in their absence for shelter and subsistence. Something to consider but it would be alast resort for me and I would have to think through how I would want someone to treat my property if I was gone for along time or even dead.

 

[cbzdel]

It all depends on circumstances of the situation. I am trying to become prepared myself so i can rely on my own. Have a food storage to last a few weeks, ammo to protect what I have saved.

But if think of the extreme "Hollywood" side, e.g. zombie apocalypse, deadly viral outbreak, alien attacks, and other similar extremes we only seem to see in movies. If anything like that was to happen I would be down at the street sporting goods then hit the ammo manufacturing company that is are few blocks away stocking up on everything I could get my hands on and not caring about any form of payment mainly because if its that bad currency will end up being worthless!

There is the real world survival that I am planning for, think Haiti, then there is the "Hollywood" survival where its live in he*l or die a painfully death, which calls for looting to survive at some point. You cant survive forever on your own once something like the Zombie apocalypse hits haha!

This gets me thinking, and I pose a question to your question. You have stocked up, your prepared for pretty much the end of the world. But you are then overtaken by others in need who steal everything you have prepared with. You have a family to feed you are starving and thirsty and have nothing. What do you do, die because of your pride or join the rest and loot away?

 

[Silver Fox]

Mountain Bear-

You bring up a good thread. There was a member who posted that he was burying some supplies out of town (he lists Salem, OR as his location) and that his cache will be near people who have cattle and that he will poach off of them as needed.

Four things come to mind:

1. People who own cattle own firearms and are very protective of their animals. This is part of their livelihood, cows = money.
2. Poaching a cow/steer/bull is a time consuming task and will waste several hundred pounds of beef if not preserved in a timely manner, so why eat a steak and waste 1199 lbs of meat? Bartering with the farmer could get you so much more and maybe a 'job' as a 'Ranch hand'. Why upset the farmer?
3. Poaching a steer will wake the rancher/farmer and how do suppose you are going to do this and not get shot?
4. Farmers/ranchers stick together. If you get away alive, where do you go then?

A friend of mine (dang near family in my book) has a spread within 40 miles of Salem. As far as I can tell this member who is planning on poaching cattle in an disclosed location, could be the very cattle that I am assigned to protect. Is he crazy? How naive are people to think that the rural country side is some PC, Walt Disney, pansie infested, environment where they could easily poach a 1500 pound animal?

There are guys like me who have nothing better to do than hunt two legged varmints during a SHTF situation. I will have a full belly, dry socks, clean rifle and sitting on the home court advantage. Why would they try this? Only politicians and actors like refugees, everybody else, not so much.

SF-

 

[jdub75]

That would be I.
My preparations at home should be fine to keep me & the fam good for a while, but my post was responding more to a true catastrophic disaster, where the staying in the house is not an option any longer, and our GOV cannot provide us immediate food/shelter.
I would be 'crazy' NOT to do what I had to, wouldn't I?
Ideally, I would knock on their front door, explain my (our) situation, and ask for help. Maybe I shoulda made that clear.
But, in a truly disasterous sitution, and if my family was going hungry, and I couldn't shoot a duck/goose/deer, yeah, I'd snag a goose or chicken or whatever, if no one was willing to help.
I know plenty of folks (including extended family) that have working farms, and have no illusions as to the type of people they are & made no assumptions in my post about them. I was merely responding to the OP's discussion, and feel its a decent strategy to have a bugout location near enough to resources, that is all. And don't sweat it SF, my location is nowhere near that far from town... its around the corner from the Humane Society. HAHA JUST KIDDING
so relax, just a discussion about a hypothetical.
As far as I'm concerned, I woudl LOVE to see some of the many like minded folks here plan some sort of 'bugout' retreat type place that folks could join. I've been brainstorming an idea like this for a few months & have been pitching it to ppl I know. It could be a nice outdoor place for the families, and have caches of food/supplies for rough times.
John

 

[Silver Fox]

John-

I don't get excited over much and I am far from it. Trust me I am very calm.

That is the bad part of the internet. Until you just posted, I had no idea what kind of level headed man you are. You lead me to believe you were just out doing the L.A. triathlon (shoot, loot and scoot) in an undisclosed location near Salem, OR. Living up here in the Puget Sound area (I am trying to move back to Oregon) I have come to understand just how far humans have separated themselves from food production and grasp very little of its concept. I have met some people who believe farmers are bunch of happy go-lucky folks who have no clue how to interact with the rest of America (that being the self enlightened city dwellers) and this is in an area that is fairly close to farms and dairies. I shudder at the mayhem if something does occur.

Long story short John, I apologize for lumping you into the category of city dwellers (CD's) and hope you find your SHTF tribe.

SF-

 

[jdub75]

Hey No prob SF! I know how the iternet discussions can go sideways unintentionally.
Best,
Jdub

 

[powersbj]

When is it poaching when is it hunting? When is it looting, when is it scavagening?

 

[Silver Fox]

When is it poaching when is it hunting? When is it looting, when is it scavagening?

When you don't have permission from the landowner (modern laws in regards to hunting are referring to the proper season to harvest an animal i.e. Deer, Elk, etc...) it is poaching. Hunting is when you have permission or in SHTF situation, hunting on land that doesn't belong to an individual.

Looting is when the owners/tenants have not abandoned their property. Scavagening is sorting through an abandoned structure or maybe wandering the country side looking to see what doesn't belong somebody already.

Just my wild guess.

SF-

 

[Scott]

poaching is taking a animal out of season and looting is stealing something that does not belong to you....... Scavagening is finding stuff that belongs to nobody like a tire in the woods.

 

[powersbj]

Its hard to say, I figure my wife and I could live for one to two months with no help. At the end of that I would scavange and barter, but not steal.

 

[powersbj]

poaching is taking a animal out of season and looting is stealing something that does not belong to you....... Scavagening is finding stuff that belongs to nobody like a tire in the woods.

The tire in the woods doesnt belong to me either... So what defines ownership?

Survival time, is the owner of the cow even alive? Who owns the deer? How about the Safeway store? The corner 7/11? And if we are to talk about poaching there are lots of precidence for laws being null in an emergency up to the point of meeting that emergency.

 

[slingshot1943]

I have 20 acres and cattle, dogs and horses. Family and friends who will probably come here will be well armed. I don't know how much value the large animals will be if there is no way to freeze them. I am going to start raising smaller critters. I don't think wild game will last long in a bad situation with city people swarming the hunting areas. I have kids who have a couple acres, but they will come here to my larger place. Other people from church and some other friends will also gather here to have a force large enough to discourage invaders. I don't think everyone who is invited will come though.

 

[Silver Fox]

I am going to start raising smaller critters.

Try looking into goats. They eat anything, are multi functional, are lean meat, easier to dress out, don't create the havoc on the land like cattle do (think wet mud) and the billys put up a good fight with coyotes.

We are looking at them just to clear out some acreage covered in black berries.

SF-

 

[powersbj]

Rabbits were popular for meat on homesteads too.

 

[Wheeler44]

Definitions; It's all definitions....That tire in the woods sure as heck "belongs" to someone...By current definition ALL wild game belong to the state, therefore by the people....In an emergency hunting on public land out of "season" isn't poaching....

Very few are truly self sufficient, so we all live off of each other to a a degree.....

As I mentioned in another thread....I'll provide training and supplies for willing workers...



Donkeys will kick butt on any animal up to and including cougar....

Mammoths are large enough to ride....

 

[matt_w]

Good luck finding an animal larger than a chipmunk to hunt/poach in a SHTF situation with thousands of other people trying to do the same thing. You're more likely to get "accidently" shot by another hunter.

 

[Just Jim]

When SHTF if it is man caused then you can bet violence will be the outcome. Police and Firefighters will dissapear and people will take the law into their own hands. After a short violent period in which old scores are settled and lines are drawn people will start to get back to normal. Depending on how bad things are they will look for who to blame for all that happened. Trees will be full of ornaments and not due to Christmas. It's the way people are.

jj