Suggested Shotgun Shells for Home Defense?

[Argonaut]

From a Nevada Corrections Institute

About 30 feet away, another officer was manning the control room—a trainee named John-Raynaldo Ramos. His job was to remotely open the cell doors from "the bubble," the glass room overlooking the floor. The elevated booth is equipped with a 12-gauge shotgun loaded with 7 1/2-birdshot—the same tiny pellets that sport shooters use to blow apart clay pigeons and that hunters use to kill birds and rabbits. The windows of the bubble, which are reinforced with security bars, can be opened to aim a gun through. "Get on the ground," Ramos ordered the two men.
Ramos fired a warning shot, but the prisoners kept scuffling. Then he fired three live rounds. When he stopped, the left side of Arevalo's body was loaded with shots. Perez lay motionless and bleeding on the floor, near a shower bag and a towel. He had at least 30 pellets in his face, 30 in his neck and as many as 200 in his chest and arms. Ramos asked another officer, Isaiah Smith, to call the prison medical staff while he tried to reload his gun.

About an hour after being released from his cell, Perez was pronounced dead. Arevalo was taken to the University Medical Center of Southern Nevada in Las Vegas, where staff recorded that he had retained "extensive" shots to the "left face, left neck, left arm, left chest, left flank."

I agree hi base 4 shot would be a better choice. The guards were using 7 1/2 shot. Possibly like trap loads. I wouldn't recommend that.

And 30 feet is further than most cross room shots add a choke (he was probably using a culinder bore) with a shorter distance and it can be devastating.

 

[Geardo]

About an hour after being released from his cell, Perez was pronounced dead. Arevalo was taken to the University Medical Center of Southern Nevada in Las Vegas, where staff recorded that he had retained "extensive" shots to the "left face, left neck, left arm, left chest, left flank."

Am I reading that correctly that he took an hour to die?

 

[Certaindeaf]

IIRC, @Velzey uses slugs in his 10 gauge autoloader.. because Velzey.

 

[Geardo]

IIRC, @Velzey uses slugs in his 10 gauge autoloader.. because Velzey.

When I was younger and dumber, I kept a Saiga 12 loaded with slugs for HD in an apt.

Figured I wouldn't miss.

 

[Velzey]

In my Ithaca Mag 10 18" riot gun

 

[Geardo]

In my Ithaca Mag 10 18" riot gun

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gQwqsBCCswAQ&usg=AOvVaw0IhllVoYxRMitSq8gGQep3

 

[Argonaut]

Am I reading that correctly that he took an hour to die?

That is not the important part......he was disabled. That is the goal of self defense. About the time you tell someone you intended to kill a person.............you are done.

 

[Geardo]

That is not the important part......he was disabled. That is the goal of self defense.

Was he disabled or did he "give up" big difference.

 

[MrMillspecer]

Am I reading that correctly that he took an hour to die?

That's with a medical team working on him also.

 

[Argonaut]

Was he disabled or did he "give up" big difference.

Lying on the deck in a pool of blood sounds pretty disabled whether via shock or physical damage, he was no longer a threat. In some of your thread responses, I have noted an overt desire to kill.......that is not the goal either in self defense or the military. It isn't like the movies and would change you for ever even if you can avoid prosecution.

 

[DirectDrive]

He didn't say slugs. Based on the "ballistics" thread, and posts here, seems like #4 buck or maybe #4 bird is the way to go, which also has limited wall penetration compared to 00 buck, or slugs. Basically just don't use 6 or 8 bird shot thinking you are going to scare the guy off.

The thing with birdshot is the closer they get the more it acts like a slug.
Suddenly eating 300 pellets will probably change his mind, though.



Not really funny though,
If you hit him in the face he's probably blind and has blood coming out of everywhere.
Birdshot can mess you up.

I just looked up Claymore shot size.
3.2 mm
Which is somewhere around #5 shot
Dayam, that's a revelation.

 

[bbbass]

I agree hi base 4 shot would be a better choice. The guards were using 7 1/2 shot. Possibly like trap loads. I wouldn't recommend that.

They don't want to hurt anybody.

A friend is a guard at Pelican Bay. She sometimes has to man the wall above the yard. With an AR15 5.56mm. According to her, it gets the job done at that distance.

 

[bbbass]

IMO if the BG is out of the fight for lack of willingness to continue, or for injuries sustained, it makes no difference. The fight is over, that's what's important. OTH, a death means your intruder won't be coming back to bother you again. But death of BG can entail many legal problems. Question is, what is the price you are willing to pay?

Reality means don't talk about it until you have your lawyer!!! Even if you are not charged, lawsuits from BG families are a popular trend.

 

[Geardo]

In some of your thread responses, I have noted an overt desire to kill......

I apologize if I came off as bloodthirsty. My main goal is to stop the threat. Unfortuntly, killing someone via a shot to the CNS or heart is the fastest way to stop them, 99% of the time.

This desire comes from the opposite place of being a Rambo or something. I don't have combat experience. I KNOW I will be scared out of my mind. If you watch videos of normal people defending them selves.... They point shoot and blast away as fast as possible to out the guy down. Pure terror on their faces.

Despite all the macho talk ( which I am sure a few people here CAN back up) if someone breaks into a NORMAL persons house with the intent to cause harm (not just sneakily stealing your TV) it is going to be scary and fast.

And honestly, yeah, I want to kill that mofo ASAP because that will STOP him ASAP. And I want as much ammo as possible without reloading at my disposal, and I want 1 shot from it to put the dude's dick in the dirt!

 

[Geardo]

Lying on the deck in a pool of blood sounds pretty disabled whether via shock or physical damage, he was no longer a threat. In some of your thread responses, I have noted an overt desire to kill.......that is not the goal either in self defense or the military. It isn't like the movies and would change you for ever even if you can avoid prosecution.

This texts says all you need to know:

Then he fired three live rounds. When he stopped, the left side of Arevalo's body was loaded with shots. Perez lay motionless and bleeding on the floor, near a shower bag and a towel. He had at least 30 pellets in his face, 30 in his neck and as many as 200 in his chest and arms. Ramos asked another officer, Isaiah Smith, to call the prison medical staff while he tried to reload his gu

Aimed shots from only 30' on a mostly still target, from an advantageous position, so low pressure, and it still took 3 shots to stop the guy!

Then he sits there fumbling trying to reload.

If that guy had a knife and was trying to kill the officer in the open, the officer woukd be dead.

 

[Argonaut]

Unless you are a rival drug dealer involved in a deal gone bad or a mafia guy, few intruders are interested in killing you. If they see a light or hear a dog 99% of them will go to the next place they perceive to be unoccupied at the time of the event. Even most home invasions are by people targeted by someone that thinks you have valuables (Drugs) or money available or around. If lights come on and people start moving around a typical intruder just wants to escape. There is no profit in randomly killing someone and even most really bad guys avoid that. That is not to say don't be prepared, but there is a fine line between self defense (the only justification for shooting anyone) and assassination. One disabling shot or action (baseball bat) is self defense, the second is murder of some degree. I am a 6'2" 235 lbs (used to be) highly combat trained guy. Self defense has always been an uphill battle for me to prove. Particularly if someone doesn't have a weapon. Now that I am old sick and weak, it might not be so difficult.

 

[bbbass]

And honestly, yeah, I want to kill that mofo ASAP because that will STOP him ASAP. And I want as much ammo as possible without reloading at my disposal, and I want 1 shot from it to put the dude's dick in the dirt!

Ouch. My friend, I hope you never have to discharge your firearm in a fight for your life or your family. This is a public forum and I'm pretty sure this could be traced back to you.

Then he sits there fumbling trying to reload.

If that guy had a knife and was trying to kill the officer in the open, the officer woukd be dead.

First, it's not fair to critique his after action shakes... adrenalin is a blitch!!

Second, I'm not so sure he wouldn't have done well in an open confrontation. I do think they should give the officers extended tubes tho. Three shots would suck against multiple aggressors.

 

[Geardo]

Unless you are a rival drug dealer involved in a deal gone bad or a mafia guy, few intruders are interested in killing you. If they see a light or hear a dog 99% of them will go to the next place they perceive to be unoccupied at the time of the event. Even most home invasions are by people targeted by someone that thinks you have valuables (Drugs) or money available or around. If lights come on and people start moving around a typical intruder just wants to escape. There is no profit in randomly killing someone and even most really bad guys avoid that. That is not to say don't be prepared, but there is a fine line between self defense (the only justification for shooting anyone) and assassination. One disabling shot or action (baseball bat) is self defense, the second is murder of some degree. I am a 6'2" 235 lbs (used to be) highly combat trained guy. Self defense has always been an uphill battle for me to prove. Particularly if someone doesn't have a weapon. Now that I am old sick and weak, it might not be so difficult.

Agreed. My plan has always been to maintain a defensive position hopefully behind a locked door in between my wife and dog and the BG, then call the police and wait. I am not going to clear my house looking for trouble!

If he comes through a locked door to get to us after I have already yelled that I am calling the cops, then I would say his motivation is pretty obvious!

 

[Geardo]

Ouch. My friend, I hope you never have to discharge your firearm in a fight for your life or your family

Me too.

 

[bbbass]

Agreed. My plan has always been to maintain a defensive position hopefully behind a locked door in between my wife and dog and the BG, then call the police and wait. I am not going to clear my house looking for trouble!

If he comes through a locked door to get to us after I have already yelled that I am calling the cops, then I would say his motivation is pretty obvious!

Now yer talkin! Great plan!!!!!