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stumps, snags and dead trees

Discussion in 'Outdoor Shooting Areas' started by Koda, Jul 2, 2016.

  1. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    what’s the law on shooting at stumps, snags and dead trees? if its legal then whats the ethic?

    Looking for primarily Oregon but would like to know about Washington state too.... I always us a target stand but was just curious about this, my notes only mention live trees.
     
  2. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I would say common sense in WA although I'm not sure if there is a certain law as long as the stump has a berm behind it then most likely it's been shot to shreds anyway and another few hundred rounds won't hurt anything.
     
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  3. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    the only thing I could think of was if there was any risk with chainsaws cutting the dead snag down later... couldn’t find anything with a quick google but did come across some pics of lumberwood with bullets in them from a sawmill...
    Wille Logging Lumber & Timber (http://willellt.blogspot.com/)

    IMG_2959.JPG

    any risk to chainsaw cutters?
     
  4. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    If I remember correctly, no "standing" tree or live tree is to be shot at. For down timber or stumps, I believe it is ok!
     
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  5. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    this is what I recall too, but my notes for the Tillamook St. Forest just say no shooting live trees. I think if I might be tempted to do anything I'd keep it to a stump, like Joe said seems more common sense. I have two home made target stands and thinking about making a third so I can shoot 1,2, &300yds in line... I’m tempted to put a target on a stump at 50yds and see that the trajectory is if I zero at 200. All that setting up takes time.
     
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  6. Cogs

    Cogs Washougal, WA. Volunteer Coordinator Staff Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I hear them say no to stumps and snags. The reason I heard was once a tree is cut or broken, water gets inside, deteriorates the wood and becomes fine tinder for potential ignition (rotted material). It would smolder for a long time before it reached the air for ignition.

    Sounds logical. I'd like to see studies on that subject.
     
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  7. Velzey

    Velzey Estacada, Oregon Gunsmith Gunsmith Bronze Vendor Bronze Supporter

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    Oh yah, ever hit a steel core bullet with your nice sharp chain? Makes it junk almost instantly, and its also a huge hazard!
     
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  8. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    ok, got it...

    that’s what I was looking for, even if its not "technically" specified it doesn’t sound like common sense
     
  9. thorborg

    thorborg portland oregon Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Hogwash.
    I don't know who "them" are, or which one of them came up with that dribble but just the nature of a "stump" or "Snag" means they are already "cut" or "Broken" all over the place!
    I could rational you would be hurrying the compost process so less to burn and more food for the live plants.
     
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  10. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I have seen fires started with Steel core bullets striking each other, setting wood and grass on fire. I have seen just how fast tracer ammo sets fires, and lets face it, dumb people don't follow the rules! This is good info to know, thanks Cogs for clearing this up! I don't like fighting fires.
     
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  11. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    the problem is people tend to target the same spot on any stump or snag and literally shoot hundreds and thousands of rounds over time into that one spot. Hot bullets will impact other bullets embedded in the object. A snag is a tree that broke above but the base trunk is still standing, water does percolate down the snag over time and aids in decomposing the inner material... similar to why many people put caps on top of their new 4x4 fence posts, to make them last longer. Its a proven fact that bullet impact and deformation can and does start fires.
     
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  12. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    That's why we always take gallon jugs of water, 5 gallons of sand, a shovel and fire extinguisher. Fires happen in the boonies during the summer so you may as well plan to fight a small one so it doesn't turn into a big one.
     
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  13. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    Excellent point Joe13 people should have these in there car's any way! I have always had a shovel and a few fire extinguishers any way, why not all a few jugs of water! I had the Muzzle blast of one of my rifles set a small fire one time, boy did it spread quickly, by the time I got to my pickup and grabbed the shovel, it was close to 20 feet round!
     
  14. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    if I recall correctly, this is also the law if the fire danger is rated high or extreme.
     
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  15. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    I never even think of shooting when in fire season ( out side of my own range) especially if it hasn't rained in a while. If I remember correctly, in Or and Wa, shooting is off limits when the fire danger is above medium!
     
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  16. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    I agree but Im not certain what the cut off limit is? Consider that in summer its always medium. I dont think its prohibited when its rated high...

    my only knowledge is several years back I was shooting out by Timber and a ranger drive up and asked if we had a shovel and a gallon of water or fire extinguisher. We only had an extinguisher (by coincedence), I told him we didnt know... he let us know its required but let us go back to shooting after I told him I had no problem bringing those in the future.
    yet I cant find that rule anywhere on any official page...
    Tillamook State Forest Blog: Target Shooting (http://tillamookstateforest.blogspot.com/p/target-shooting.html)

    this link is the actual law for Tillamook St. forest... (you have to scroll down a ways to 629-025-0040(9))
    Please Contact Us (http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/pages/rules/oars_600/oar_629/629_025.html)
     
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  17. thorborg

    thorborg portland oregon Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    your retort of my comment is off target and moot. I was commenting on the ridiculously fallacious tale offered to Cogs as to why we cant shoot stumps and snags. I read no mention on ignition sources. I read something about increased tinder for fire, produced from drilling holes onto an already butchered and possibly rotted object but some how you changed it to hot bullets. (from tinder production to ignition systems)
    Weather it's one hole in a 1000 stumps or 1000 holes in one stump the proliferation of tinder by shooters is miniscule. as an aggregate of all forest shooters, I doubt they produce enough tinder to even register on the same scale which includes logging.
    I don't think I could pack in my truck all the ammo shot off in the woods by myself, family (including loggers) and friends over the last 66 years and all without one fire started. I have no proof but doubt the holes made were to cause of any fires either.

    And soon, from dogmas based on agendas, ideologies or economics, another road to the core of our forests will be closed to the nonpaying peoples. Shooters are making too much tinder:eek:
     
  18. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    My apologies, I was simply trying to explain my point of view... from my experience and research I've learned that it is possible to start fires from target shooting and certain types of decomposing forest material, perhaps a decomposing tree, can create tinder that can ignite. There is plenty of evidence that target shooters can start fires, the recent "Pit36" fire here in Oregon is one. In 2008 a target shooter started a forest fire near Yosemite that destroyed 25 homes. Target shooting on public lands isnt a Second Amendment right and we dont need any more negative incidents.
    Growing Blaze Destroys 25 Homes Near Yosemite National Park | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/07/29/growing-blaze-destroys-25-homes-near-yosemite-national-park.html)

    as far as ignition sources, well I don’t think anyone can deny that bullets are hot when fired but here is an official study from the Forest Service that shows how this works, how bullets impacting objects generate enough heat to start a forest fire...
    http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs/rmrs_rp104.pdf

    I started this threat to learn about either the law or ethic on shooting at stumps and dead trees and part of that includes fire safety. What I've read on the subject corroborates Cogs reply. Its ok if you disagree and I don’t mean anything against you by replying if there is some study or other evidence that suggests bullet impact cannot start fires I'd be interested in learning more.

    see link to study...
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
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  19. thorborg

    thorborg portland oregon Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Well the onus is on me to admit I was duped.

    I should have known it was another bullets start fires thread and left it alone.

    (So can friction, Lightening, spontaneous combustion sunlight through glass and volcanoes just to name a few other anomalies.)

    I’m weary of justifying controls and taxes being levied on me by promoting anomalies as ubiquitous.

    When juxtaposing the millions of rounds shot yearly to the few accredited (weather proved or not) to starting fires I would call them anomalies.

    Remove all shooting from the forest and see if forest fires are squelched appreciably. Likely not.

    As a shooter / sportsman, the cause would be better spent clarifying and justifying the anomaly view and not adding suspect fodder to the gun control ilk’s podium.

    Continuation of this aspect of “public awareness” program will eventually lead to uncalled for regulations.

    Awareness is one thing. Actually believing you can eradicate “S#i+ happens” by punishing, legislating, taxing and controlling good and honest peoples due the actions of a few is infantile. Yet this is ubiquitous throughout the news and politics. The effectiveness or results are unimportant and good people are called collateral damage as nothing can stand in the way of the cause. Even science has been bastardized, scrapping empirical data for who said it, how loud it was said and how long it can be repeated, until all Pavlov’s dogs bark to the same tune..

    Except, not this dog!

    My apologies for my diatribe, and sidetracking your agenda.
     
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  20. Cogs

    Cogs Washougal, WA. Volunteer Coordinator Staff Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Ha! Thor, you got a way with words! Love it. (Don't understand a few of them, but love it anyway.)

    I appreciate your point of view. I'll stick to the awareness thing just because it could be possibile and I want to be aware of what could happen 'if'..... Being aware of the 'if' part, I would consider a better situation to shoot in, a better type of target and a better type of ammo to use. Not only that, I will bring safety gear because I'm more aware of the 'if'. ('IF' is the biggest word in the English language).

    We certainly don't want to inspire more rules and regulations because of loud voices about something that may or may not be fact. We'll keep our voice to a whisper! Thanks for the caution.

    Hope to see you again soon!

    Bill
     
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