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This kind of thing is the reason why I only accept USPS money orders for firearms. Refund policy is stated as being only if the item arrives not as described. No other refund reason accepted

This. I sell on Gunbroker once in a while. I won't sell anything long distance on any other format. Some GB customers want only CC transactions, balk at money orders. Too bad, I'm not set up to do CC and never will be.

I'm speaking from ignorance here, but just a thought: what about contacting PayPal and telling them:

Good luck with that. Even if you could connect, it might only muddy the waters.

The guy sounds like a total weirdo. If it were me, I'd just send his money back the way he sent it to you, with a transaction note something like "Payment rejected and returned". Then I'd wash my hands of it and move on.

Could be a weird scam or sting, but my Spidey-Senses is just saying good old fashioned messed up person. Society is replete with examples of people with mental health issues, on-going substance abuse, or emotional problems, who can't get their proverbial sh__ together.

Seriously, do we want to sell guns to people like this? Under any circumstances? Another reason for staying on a well-trod path. Like through an FFL, who would know on their end if they were dealing with a wacko. Now that private transfers in Wash. require an FFL as intermediary, the one good thing about it is you know the BGC has been done. Which from the standpoint of personal liability is a good thing, in my view.
 
Seriously, do we want to sell guns to people like this? Under any circumstances? Another reason for staying on a well-trod path. Like through an FFL, who would know on their end if they were dealing with a wacko. Now that private transfers in Wash. require an FFL as intermediary, the one good thing about it is you know the BGC has been done. Which from the standpoint of personal liability is a good thing, in my view.

I've read a number of firearms ads from Idaho... almost all of them will only sell to people that have a Concealed Carry Permit, or whatever it is called there, even tho permits are not always required to carry concealed there. They just don't want to sell to sketchy people and they know that a CCP requires a more thorough BGC.
 
The buyer knew this was going to ship to his FFL, I mentioned it before he paid, he said that he'd call them and have them email me a copy. It almost has to be some kind of weird scam. It was a low dollar gun, so maybe they thought it was worth the risk.
 
The buyer knew this was going to ship to his FFL, I mentioned it before he paid, he said that he'd call them and have them email me a copy. It almost has to be some kind of weird scam. It was a low dollar gun, so maybe they thought it was worth the risk.


Yea, everything about this screams "this is a scam" to me. I would refund after 3-4 weeks or hold that he provides information for an FFL.
 
This sounds like a refund scam. The buyer purchases an item and then either changes the delivery address or claims they never received the item and paypal refunds their money from your account. Now they have the item and the money.

The buyer probably didn't consider the insistence on it being shipped to an FFL.

Any and all refunds should be sent via Paypal so you have proof it was sent and received. If you send via Western Union the buyer will claim they never received the refund and PayPal will charge your account.

It's a common scam and one I've encountered running my small business.
What he said! ^^^^

Dan
 
The buyer knew this was going to ship to his FFL, I mentioned it before he paid, he said that he'd call them and have them email me a copy. It almost has to be some kind of weird scam. It was a low dollar gun, so maybe they thought it was worth the risk.

I wonder if the problem is that he has a sketchy FFL... I can't see any reason for them to refuse you a copy. Them holding out to be paid for the BGC, even if it's by him, before they send it makes no sense. An experienced FFL would wait for the firearm to arrive, log it into their books, and then wait for payment by the buyer. Unless maybe the buyer has been so sketchy with them that they are demanding payment up front.
 
I know we've all encountered the strange/flakey/scamming customers/deals, but I have a strange one I can't figure out the angle on. Customer purchased a gun with PayPal friends/family, inc shipping to New Mexico. he hasn't returned any texts/calls/emails until now with shipping info(the FFL he wants it transferred to). Now he says his FFL hasn't received my money so they won't give me a copy of their FFL, and he won't tell me who his FFL is. I'm about to just give him a refund and tell him to go away, but I can't figure out what his game is and want to make sure I'm not going to get scammed on PayPal. Anyone encounter anything like this?
Personally I would get out of this deal and do a straight up deal face to face via ad on arms list or this forum etc.

It wouldn't be worth the time and stress for me. I prefer to sell a little less to regular people locally or consign with a trustworthy gun shop of which there are quite a few around, including several that are supporters of this forum.
 
I wonder if the problem is that he has a sketchy FFL... I can't see any reason for them to refuse you a copy. Them holding out to be paid for the BGC, even if it's by him, before they send it makes no sense. An experienced FFL would wait for the firearm to arrive, log it into their books, and then wait for payment by the buyer. Unless maybe the buyer has been so sketchy with them that they are demanding payment up front.
My guess is that he never really contacted an FFL.
 
His last message about looking hard enough strikes me as odd. His PayPal account has no address, just a name.

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I think you have your answer in the text. I hate to say it, but keep the money and move on, or demand a physical address to send a postal money order, but deduct the $50-100 for the weirdness of the transaction. The buyer may be a hacker who could attack PP with your refund process information. Could be a refund scam!
 
My guess is that he never really contacted an FFL.

Could be... was exploring alternate theories.

I've sold a lot of items via EBay, GB, Craigslist, RVTrader, etc... and seen it all. I have a very firm policy that I stick with for dealing with respondents. I make the customer responsible for all things not directly in my control. Such as having an FFL willing to do the transfer... that is HIS responsibility. Otherwise it's just not worth the hassle and I'd rather give the stuff away.
 
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Them holding out to be paid for the BGC, even if it's by him, before they send it makes no sense.
There's plenty of reasons for that. Maybe they don't like doing private transfers (some shops don't and act/price accordingly). Maybe they've been burned before, left holding an unclaimed gun. Or a stolen piece. Sure, there are remedies for those things but why go through the hassle for 20 bucks (or whatever). Could be they consider the BGC and fee as "earnest money" or a kind of deposit... ? Who knows?

But none of that explains why the buyer didn't just move along to the next FFL in the phone book...

Whatever the case, I'd send homeboy his money back and be done.
 
Pretty weird, hope it works out for you. I'm curious about the resolution, can't figure out what he hopes to accomplish.

I can't see how there's anything he could do to you if you just sent it back the way it came (PayPal F&F), but I'm no expert on all that, and could be wrong.
 
Pretty weird, hope it works out for you. I'm curious about the resolution, can't figure out what he hopes to accomplish.

I can't see how there's anything he could do to you if you just sent it back the way it came (PayPal F&F), but I'm no expert on all that, and could be wrong.

Not sure about this... in other situations/methods, customers have been known to cancel payment. Sometime after the seller has refunded the money, he gets billed for the cancelled payment and the whole thing goes to Settlement. I dunno, not sure how PP F&F works.
 
There's a certain amount of vulnerability there, as well, since all the buyer has to do is report to paypal that there is an issue and that it is about a firearm purchase,
and you are then likely to get your account locked. Even though it's friends and family. Probably a good time to clean out the account, and make sure it doesn't have access to your bank account. I came pretty close to getting burned by paypal over what actually seemed to be a bank mistake. Buyer in Australia, I shipped him a BSA transmission, which he received and liked, but his bank did something weird, and paypal was going to charge me back for something like us$300, good thing I was quick and emptied the account, and pulled bank access. About that point I quit using paypal for sales.
 
If this guy is a scammer or a felon, keep the money. Demand an ffl. Why even risk getting screwed? I have no problem keeping money from criminals and wack jobs. Especially for the slight of expecting you to break the law.
 
I suppose if he paid through PayPal using his credit card, he could theoretically complain to his bank and get a chargeback from the credit card through PayPal, but I don't think you can use a credit card with F&F; I think it has to be PayPal balance. If I'm wrong about that, then that could be his angle.

PayPal is pretty clear that F&F is not for purchases, hence no complaints or chargebacks. If you use F&F to buy something and it goes sideways, you're on your own. As to PayPal, say the guy complains to them after you reverse his payment. He tells them "I tried to buy a gun from this guy and he wouldn't cooperate."

Some PayPal flunky looks at the "Friends and Family" transaction he sent you, and sees that you sent it back, marked "Refused and returned". That's not on you; that's on him.
 
When I used paypal years ago, I opened a separate account specifically for that purpose and kept it at close to a zero balance. When I wanted to pay for something, I'd deposit what was necessary. When I got money, I'd withdraw it immediately.

As for this guy, as others have mentioned, why does he think the FFL would receive money from you? The FFL receives the gun.
YEP! When I first saw Ebay and it looked interesting I of course set up my PayPal. At that time you had to open the account with a checking account. They would let you add a credit card after. At the time all kinds of banks were offering free checking with almost no restrictions. I went to one opened an account with a couple hundred, took all but 25 out, set up PayPal. Did the same thing you did. I was getting rid of all kinds of "stuff" like holsters, loading gear no longer used and such. When I bought I paid with a Credit Card and PP would desperately try to get me to use the bank account not the CC. As people bought stuff from me the money came right out of the account. Years later I closed the bank account and by then PP just let me keep the account open with just a CC. While back I sold a few hundred worth of stuff on Ebay so I did have to have them send me a check which cost me a few bucks. The account sits idle for a LONG time and so far PP never seems to care. Until I joined here and started using it to donate here I had not used it in years and they never seem to care. It comes in handy to have it for that and they have no access to my banks so until someone comes up with something else I will keep them. I always try to warn others though to use care with them. You can have years of no problems but, if something happens it can be a PITA if anyone trusts them.
 
WTF, sometimes people are dumb.

Not sure what he can do really. He sent the money via PayPal in a way that removes liability to the seller. He literally can't fight it in his end. It's also an item that PayPal restricts their services on.

Id send him a text demanding FFL information.

Also note that the sale has been finalized, just like any gun store, sales are final.

Id probably call him out to, straight up say this smells like a scam and or like he can't pass a BGC.

If that all fails. I'd be getting in contact with PayPal quickly. Telling them that the buyer used Friends and Family and is now requesting a refund, but it smells like some type of scam. You shouldn't have to mention what was sold.
 
Looks odd. I'd have never shipped but weird their FFL is involved.

I mean if you don't have an FFL # to send it to, who's fault is that?

The problem could be if you ship, they could dispute the charge with their card company which in turn will trickle down to PP reversing the payment because they don't want to be on the hook for the funds. Then you are the one getting hosed.

Too many red flags there.
 

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