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Stopping Power

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by DOA, Apr 1, 2011.

  1. DOA

    DOA Aloha, OR -185th & TV Hwy Active Member

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    I found this info on S&W forum while googling some info. If this is a repeat of what someone else has shared, please delete this.

    I like real world facts about stopping power of calibers. When my wife was working at the hospital, she would frequently comment about how many people are shot and survive a trip to E.R.

    Stopping Power
     
  2. DieselScout

    DieselScout S Clackamas County Well-Known Member

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    The problem with the data set is the fact that it is "real world". Common calibers are going to rate higher because more people carry them. The .41 magnum is a perfect example, not many people carry it, so not huge data set. More common calibers are going to be carried by a larger range of shooters with a larger skill set. So, say I was interviewed and I shot someone with a 9.4mm Dutch Revolver, killed them dead with one shot. It's extremely unlikely they will find anyone else who has. So, by that bit of info the 9.4mm Dutch Revolver is the optimum defense round, as it works 100% of the time.
     
  3. DOA

    DOA Aloha, OR -185th & TV Hwy Active Member

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    Yes, I agree that would be true, but going by what the "popular" calibers that are commonly carried I find it comforting and shocking to see my s&w .357 rocking the charts (DANG! Wouldn't have guessed it being top 3). Even though the .357 is not all the most talked about CC round in my opinion compared to .380 & .45 by my observations. Again, my personal observations. I feel glad knowing I stand a little bit of a higher chance of protecting my self and/or family with my not so popular j frame CC. Even though I bounce between that and my .40.

    I'm sure shot placement is going to come from someone, but I highly doubt all those stops are from sharp shooters ;)

    my comment is not directed at you, but just for convo.
     
  4. cyclesarge

    cyclesarge Eugene OR, DUH! We're ALL in the NORTHWEST Well-Known Member

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    I thought about that too, but came to the conclusion that since there is no point in taking a dead body to the ER, the percentage of survivors of gunshots is skewed if you are just looking at the numbers that come through the ER.
     
  5. DieselScout

    DieselScout S Clackamas County Well-Known Member

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    I am all up for good conversation, this is after all the internet! :D

    And yes I agree, that not all the stops are going to be from sharp shooters. The point I was trying to get across was, with a common round, there is a higher probability that a sharp shooter is going to be carrying it.

    I also wonder how law enforcement have skewed that graph. For very long time, the caliber of choice for LEO's was the .357 mag, then it changed to the 9mm and the 40 S&W, all of which rate highly. LEO's should be better trained and should be able to get a "one shot stop" easier then Joe Blow.
     
  6. DOA

    DOA Aloha, OR -185th & TV Hwy Active Member

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    I'm the type that I pick my firearm based on what I'm wearing. Not what to wear around my firearm. I also would prefer to carry a .357 round over .38. I pick my .40 based on capacity and size over a 9mm, and the chart reassures my "feelings". lol.
     
  7. zeezee

    zeezee nowheresville Member

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  8. DOA

    DOA Aloha, OR -185th & TV Hwy Active Member

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    I read the article and the comments. It's a good write-up, but even if the numbers are skewed, .357 falls nicely between big and small round affectionados. I'm not trying to be a .357 defender, but with all the talk about .380-9mm-.40-.45, with a plug for .357 sig and 10mm here and there. I found it interesting that it's somewhat disregarded in topics, but obviously used in real world action more than I thought and according to the chart. Who knows the real numbers, really? It just gives a pause for thought like ballistics test do for me.
     
  9. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    That is the somewhat outdated Marshall and Sanow study from many years ago and it references old bullet tech only. If I remember right even the Gold Dots mentioned were early GD designs

    Nationally cops have a terrible hit percentage.. about 22% of fired rounds actually hit their intended target. The fog of war tosses training out the window for all but the cool headed. Many cops are not in the Gun Culture and to them it's just their job and the gun is merely a tool and nothing more

    The .357 mag with the 125 grain JHP used to be the best commonly carried self defense round and it's what my wife has carried for 25 years or so.. but today bullet technology has made all the other 9 MM + P and larger calibers almost as effective, without the blast, flash and recoil

    The lesser calibers can work and a .380 can make a decent back up gun but you're taking a greater chance of being shot or stabbed in return due to their lesser effectiveness. For me a 9MM +P is the minimum primary or 2nd BUG. You might find a .380 in my boot or pocket as a 3rd gun though
     
  10. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    Let's compare two calibers here and the weapons systems that fire them, from the perspective of a gal like my wife, assuming that the stopping power chart still has some validity, which it does to some degree

    My gal's current carry weapon (stole a pic off the web, not actually her gun) S & W M65 .357 magnum

    6 shots at 96 % stopping power. Fast reloads are possible but not as easy as with an auto mainly due to the difficulty of carrying speed loaders in a ready access location. A pistol mag can be put in your back jeans pocket and easily retrieved

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTJK1TWivtAav7F_e_btNsFApBmbRK18E_AosE5M3R9SpJ4qqEXNw&t=1.jpg

    Next up we have new matching G23 .40 cal Glocks. This one is mine with the Wolf extended barrel, hers only has the original Glock barrel and the light. Both guns also have the two color Trijicon tritium nite sights which I installed myself after purchase of a a Glock specific sight tool. The revolver above requires serious drilling by a competent smith for nite sight install... 14 shots @ 94% stopping power, reloads of 13 to 17 rounds (15 rd mag with + 2 base), and the added bonus of a rail for a light like the Procyon

    dsc00696l.jpg

    I did not choose either for this reason but both these weapons were/are FBI standard issue when we bought them (The FBI magnum was the blued M13) IMO that says something about them
     
  11. MA Duce

    MA Duce Central Oregon Well-Known Member

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    :thumbup: I found that article very logical and well done. One point that was made, but kind of mentioned in passing, was PRACTICE. A bazooka is a sure fire one shot stop.....IF you hit the target. While I have fun teasing friends who pack 40s or 9mms, the fact is that a practiced shooter putting rounds where they are aiming ALWAYS has an edge.
     
  12. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    ZeeZee's link was interesting and the author makes some good points but I have a few critiques to make

    1) The cop who shot the armed man who returned fire.. what hollowpoint make and weight? That is a crucial factor. The 158 grain JHP is not a good expander at all, (sometimes not expanding at all) and is a poor choice for self defense against bipeds. The 125 grain Remington or Federal offer excellent and very effective expansion with great penetration

    2) the following quote

    That gave me quite a chuckle.. 3 or 4 9MMs to match one mighty .45? Please, spare me, the .45 cult propaganda is getting a bit thick here

    Just as silly was the comment that one expanding 9MM would maybe do the damage of a .45 ball. This is just plain goofy. The .45 ball leaves a permanent .36 caliber crush cavity, a good expanding 9MM can reach .70 caliber expanded. Which would you rather be hit with?

    .45 ball

    45FMJ.jpg

    9MM Cor Bon DPX bullet

    image004.jpg

    More on the DPX

    Corbon 9mm 115

    His "formula" is IMO also goofy

    * 2-3 hits with a .45
    * 4-6 with a .40
    * 5-8 with a 9mm

    Then he states that the .357 does not have better stopping power than the .45. Deer hunters who regularly take venison and even black bear with a .357 would laugh at this goofy statement. How many of them regularly use a .45 ACP for such hunting?

    Then he gets even whackier..

    The .44 Magnum with a lightweight hollowpoint or a MagSafe is not more effective on a attacker than a .45 ACP?

    Just more .45 ACP Cult stuff. I like the caliber and own a few, in fact I reload for it, but..

    Um, sorry Charlie but the stats don't really point to his 45 is da bomb conclusion. Regardless if I have a .75 Magnum or a .380 I am shooting till they drop or I can obtain escape or cover. I sure won't be counting anything unless it's how many lives I just lost out of my allotted 9
     
  13. RallySoob

    RallySoob Salem, OR Active Member

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    i hate statistics... so many variables unaccounted for but its a good read. How resiliant the target is, where target is hit (even a 22 lr through the neck into the spine is a 1shot kill, seen it on a deer once...sshhh) what kind of bullet is used etc. I bet a nice hollowpoint 44mag or 50AE would be a bit devastating right.

    I heard the .357 mag had the most SD kills, this lil chart supports that rumor well
     
  14. Skang

    Skang WA Well-Known Member

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    Shot placement is the key.

    I'd say spend more time training yourself then thinking about what caliber I should carry.
     
  15. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    I would guess that the higher % of one stop shots were from more comfortable shooting guns and the more popular guns that the LOEs shot off duty

    The study I read a few years back stated that the 40 S&W had surpassed the 357 by like .02%.All this would show is the LEOs had gotten used to the newer 9mms and then were given,at the time,a better bullet but pretty much the same gun.(more time on the gun?)
     
  16. DOA

    DOA Aloha, OR -185th & TV Hwy Active Member

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    Yes, I agree with the practice mentioned above. It's a given, but I'm also sure an ill placed shot from my .500 would put a stop to a situation long enough to run away. It's that it's difficult to CC:cool: and shooting inside the house may start a fire, cause major disorientation, hearing loss and brief blindness in the dark.

    I'm glad I posted, very insightful links and feedback. Again, more to think about.

    Matter of fact, as I'm writing this I heard what sounded like two shots fired outside (window open), then a crazy amount of siren activity. Not an April fools joke. Ironic, but hopefully I'm wrong.
     
  17. Spad

    Spad Kennewick,WA, the desert side Active Member

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    I have all three of the Marshall books and follow the website. One of the things to remember is these stats are for a study. The figures quoted are from an older study. They reflect particlar references to "one shot stops". Since these books were written new bullets have been produced which seem to work very well. One must be careful in the interpetation of "one shoot stops". This is merely a statistic from available sources.The books are well written and researched. Obviously a hit from .458 African will produce a one shot stop, so there are other calibers out there that did not figure in the studies. The books discuss other calibers and results of shootings, including some revealing thoughts on black powder pistols even. Good reading and educational. If you come across the books, worth your time to read them. Spad :thumbup:
     
  18. Rix

    Rix Tacoma Active Member

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    .30 carbine 0" penetration.

    I'll dismiss that list offhand.
     
  19. rusobr2

    rusobr2 prineville,or Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    i have commented on this subject before--my wife and i both use 9mm . my wife was reading in some different articals that a 9mm "won't save you" my comment to her was "if you are that threatened -- to pull a gun" * EMPTY THE CLIP* we'll count em later !!

    my thoughts...steven
     
  20. Spad

    Spad Kennewick,WA, the desert side Active Member

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    There are many instances of .40,.45. .357 calibers hits multiple times on an individual and they did not put the person down. Nothing wrong with 9mm. Accuracy is the key and placement next. rusobr2 has it right, "if you are threatened", etc. "count em later". Spad