Stopping power vs. Lethality - caught on camera

[Certaindeaf]

.Heavier bullets do not necessarily make the biggest holes.

I remember way back, my buddy shot an unopened, top-facing, tuna can with a .44 special 200 grain Silvertip. It barely leaked or even moved.
I shot the next one with a 9mm 115gr Silvertip, non +p/+P+.. there was no hole. There was no can left.

 

[U201491]

Not entirely. If your not going to hit a vital zone then its a balance of what tears the biggest holes vs. mag capacity... the latter is a factor because of the likelihood of hitting anything at all under stress which is why you missed the vital zone. Heavier bullets do not necessarily make the biggest holes.

The ideal bullet, will expend all its energy inside the target before exiting or just short of exiting.
There are many things that alter that, but it is a good rule of thumb.
A 17 jsp doing 4K ft per second will do more tissue damage that a 45 in the teens if you want to get technical.
Heavy Clothing will interfere with performance also.. A big heavy 12 ga slug will take you off your feet.
Final rule, any gun is better than no gun.

 

[wichaka]

Actually most police agencies I've been in contact with teach 5 shots rapid fire somewhere in the general vicinity of COM. This includes BTW the WCJTC.

Since I taught at CJTC, and was on the team that rewrote the firearms training program, allow me to elaborate on a few things.

Unless the shots go in the snot locker, two rounds COM will take awhile for the hydraulic fluid to drain to a level low enough to stop the problem at hand. As I posted at the start of this thread, a lot of carnage can be inflicted in that amount of time.

The minimum standard response years ago were two rounds, but that hasn't been the case in...well...many years now. Just that the folks haven't been caught up to date.

In updating firearms training, we look at a few factors, bullet performance, shot placement, and percentages. I know that's a nasty thing to bring into a gunfight, but the law of percentages does come into play here.

The information gathered from being able to view dash cam and surveillance video, sitting in on AA debriefs, as well as attending many a autopsy, all has been used when evaluating and updating any training.

Tis sad that there a lot of today's firearms instructors who are no more than charlatans, being somewhat clueless about knowing how and why the material they teach came about.

Then there are the students that are being led down that unknowing road. I'm reminded of a saying that a friend of mine one said about such students..."I find it odd that people's BS detectors are so broken."

Firing 3-5 rounds at a person to stop the threat, will cause you no more paperwork, or heartache in a possible civil hearing in the aftermath. But less than that may cause your demise. Now firing 2-3 magazines, might cause you some problems.


In the words of that ding-a-ling from that beer commercial..."Stay vigilant my friends."

 

[Koda]

The ideal bullet, will expend all its energy inside the target before exiting or just short of exiting.

You mean the ideal situation?

I agree in general that aheavier bullet is ideal but there are so many variables i dont want to get tunnel vision looking for that elusive "best single" bullet. The way i see it is if you are under too much stress to hit a vital zone than incapacitation is a simple dissasembly by bullet process or until the criminal bleeds out.

There is an excellent video floting the gun forums of the botched Miami police house call that shows how much a bad guy can take while staying in the gunfight. It also is a good example of a good guy returning fire under stress. Like the video in this thread its sobering to think about.

 

[U201491]

You mean the ideal situation?
.

Yes, but there is seldom an ideal situation.
An ideal sidearm would be one that imparts the kind of energy from a 12 ga slug. But size and practicality isn't there.
Elmer Keith and PO Ackley both have their beliefs and both are correct, just not all the time.

 

[Koda]

Taku, I think we are on the same page.

When the subject of "stopping power" comes up I always say to shoot whatever you shoot best because the gun and bullet are the lower factors in the equation below marksmanship, penetration and stress. I'm not so much worried about knock down power because I'm comfortable firing any of the popular self defense calibers, they have all proven to be man stoppers per-se and all roughly perform the same... since size and practicality isn't there with that 'ideal' sidearm, I'll stick with what I shoot best which means I'm (hopefully) more likely to follow up accurately under stress.

that said, I do tend to choose the heavier weights if available but I don't know if in the same caliber it makes a difference.

 

[Brutus57]

I'll tell you what every good soldier knows.
Nothing counts but power, naked, merciless force.
General Ursus
Original Planet of the Apes movies


One of my all time favorite movie quotes and it works for so many situations in life.
Brutus out

 

[G1GRANDEUR]

caliber war will never end.....

 

[usmc]

doesnt anyone remember the 1986 miami shootout PLATT AND MATIX ? what does someone do when they get shot with a handgun?the same thing they were doing before they were shot with a hand gun.unless they have no will to fight.these guys were nuts.


1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[U201491]

Taku, I think we are on the same page.

When the subject of "stopping power" comes up I always say to shoot whatever you shoot best because the gun and bullet are the lower factors in the equation below marksmanship, penetration and stress. I'm not so much worried about knock down power because I'm comfortable firing any of the popular self defense calibers, they have all proven to be man stoppers per-se and all roughly perform the same... since size and practicality isn't there with that 'ideal' sidearm, I'll stick with what I shoot best which means I'm (hopefully) more likely to follow up accurately under stress.

that said, I do tend to choose the heavier weights if available but I don't know if in the same caliber it makes a difference.

Yep, be proficient with what you use.
Even better avoid the shootout and always make it the final resort.
If you can't, be better faster and smarter.

 

[U201491]

doesnt anyone remember the 1986 miami shootout PLATT AND MATIX ? what does someone do when they get shot with a handgun?the same thing they were doing before they were shot with a hand gun.unless they have no will to fight.these guys were nuts.


1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That was an interesting incident. Sure as hell changed the perspectives of many people, but that has happened on more than one occasion, and there are many many stories from WWII about extreme number of hits and people continued fighting.
There is a mindset that seems to keep people alive, yet the opposite can cause someone to die with even a minor wound.
They are still trying to decipher the reasons for that.
The psychology of a gunfight is an interesting topic.


http://www.chemicalbiological.net/physiological%20reactions_tachy%20psyche.html

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http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-realities-of-a-gunfight

http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/2005634-10-critical-habits-for-winning-a-gunfight/

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1313550/posts

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http://www.attackproof.com/volume-11-gunfights.html

 

[Sgt Nambu]

C'mon you haters and deniers... If the trooper had been flinging .45ACP+P CorBon 230gr JHP traveling @ 1100+FPS, all that would have been needed was a push broom, a couple plastic garbage bags, and a hose to spray away the poop and innards sucked out of the bad guy's back from the exit wound!

HAHAHA! That's what I carry! Still dont want to gun fight a crazy man!

Just want to take a line to express my sadness for the guys poor kids. I hope they have someone to love and care for them.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

Unless the military actually starts teaching pistol shooting in a serious way, it doesn't matter what they issue. My training with a pistol was a joke, even by the standards of the time. Most of the guys I talk to recently out tell me this hasn't much changed with the exception of a VERY few MOS's. -Besides, for most military uses, if you're using a pistol, you're having an INCREDIBLY bad day. -Because your rifle stopped working or is out of ammo. For military CQB there are a lot of choices I'd make before I ever got to a pistol, of any kind or caliber.

Way back in my day it was pretty much if you got all the rounds in your 1943 1911 down range you qualified. If you didn't hit an instructor, you qualified expert! Only slight exaggeration!

 

[Sgt Nambu]

Have one. Its a fine sidearm, and you get used to working that catch quickly.

I carried a Seacamp for several years and, through drills, learned to manipulate the heel mag latch ok. The problem was when I had carried a pistol with a thumb release for the winter and switched back to the Seacamp in the spring. There was always some difficulty the first couple of months with a tiny hesitation in dropping the mag, even with drills! Probably just how my mind works. It ain't what it used to be!

 

[Certaindeaf]

HAHAHA! That's what I carry! Still dont want to gun fight a crazy man!.

Haha, 9/10 of the time everyone will say you're a piker/stupid if you carry +p/+P+ in 9mm, even 9mm bois.

 

[U201491]

I carried a Seacamp for several years and, through drills, learned to manipulate the heel mag latch ok. The problem was when I had carried a pistol with a thumb release for the winter and switched back to the Seacamp in the spring. There was always some difficulty the first couple of months with a tiny hesitation in dropping the mag, even with drills! Probably just how my mind works. It ain't what it used to be!

My primary is a Kimber Ultra Carry stoked with B.Talons and, or Ranger Law Enforcement SXT
and The Sunday Gun is Rohrbaugh R9 Also with BT's The Mag release is no problem. Up on the mag and slight push back and the mag falls clear. Pretty fast with a bit of use.
The 45 has only been fed the best Wilson Mags.

 

[Flopsweat]

Haha, 9/10 of the time everyone will say you're a piker/stupid if you carry +p/+P+ in 9mm, even 9mm bois.

I'm going to call you on that. I carry 9mm more often than any other caliber and my defensive rounds are all +p or +p+. Same with everyone I know who carries 9mm. That's one for and one against. Anybody else? Batter up.

 

[U201491]

I'm going to call you on that. I carry 9mm more often than any other caliber and my defensive rounds are all +p or +p+. Same with everyone I know who carries 9mm. That's one for and one against. Anybody else? Batter up.

As long as you are good with it and comfortable it is the perfect gun for you.
The perfect weapon is the one you choose to use and train with.

 

[wichaka]

I'm going to call you on that. I carry 9mm more often than any other caliber and my defensive rounds are all +p or +p+. Same with everyone I know who carries 9mm. That's one for and one against. Anybody else? Batter up.

I haven't seen any more or less internal wound damage from a standard pressure round compared to a +P or a +P+.

More hype than fact.

What's that that old marketing saying...oh yes;

Market an item in such a way that the public thinks they can't live without it, then go in for the monetary kill.

Most any good quality constructed HP will do about as good as a pistol can. They are some better than others, no doubt there...+P and +P+ aint all that. But they are harder on a gun.

 

[U201491]

I haven't seen any more or less internal wound damage from a standard pressure round compared to a +P or a +P+.

More hype than fact.

What's that that old marketing saying...oh yes;

Market an item in such a way that the public thinks they can't live without it, then go in for the monetary kill.

Most any good quality constructed HP will do about as good as a pistol can. They are some better than others, no doubt there...+P and +P+ aint all that. But they are harder on a gun.

Increased pressure definitly takes a toll on parts. Continued use will end up with failure of something.
If only used for defensive use and not practiced with it will minimize the potential for damage hopefully.
Cracks can develop in slides, frames.... keep a close eye on it.
Remember though that it is better to carry with what you practice with.
Just an opinion.

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Even metal fatigue can result in similar events.