Stopping power vs. Lethality - caught on camera

[wichaka]

I have a buddy who is on a swat team in San Jose,he tells me if i ever have to shoot someone that I should aim for the lungs then aim for the heart or head,I've been practicing that way for awhile now on silhouette targets.I'm taking his word for it since he has put down a few bad guys.

A lot of silhouette targets put the vitals too low. Make sure yours are anatomically correct. It'll help you in the long run.

 

[biggie24420]

I don't think I would have been as nice as that trooper as far as asking the drive to please get back in his car. By the body language of the bad guy, I would have had my pistol pointing right at him! because with that kinda attitude and body language, no way in heck would I let someone close in on me like that.

 

[Rotty]

False statement. Even with hits like this a man can function. The heart would have to substain extreme damage for a direct hit to drop a man instantly. (think a kill shot on a deer)
The only quarenteed kill shot is the brain stem. figure maybe a 1/2 inch sq target.

As to the event to me it appears as a suicide by cop. There are a lot of questions the video does not answer.
But i really feel for the kids.

Even a point blank shot to the heart a man can still function. Granted they don't function well but it does take approx 3 minutes to completely bleed out. That's why most police agencies train to double tap. Two to the chest and one to the head.

Plain and simple the guy in the video bled out and died. Bullet placement did it's job. Caliber could have made a difference but then again maybe not. Adrenaline can turn a man into superman for a short period.

 

[Flopsweat]

Even a point blank shot to the heart a man can still function. Granted they don't function well but it does take approx 3 minutes to completely bleed out. That's why most police agencies train to double tap. Two to the chest and one to the head.

Plain and simple the guy in the video bled out and died. Bullet placement did it's job. Caliber could have made a difference but then again maybe not. Adrenaline can turn a man into superman for a short period.

This ties in well with a fact that was mentioned in a CPR class that I took last year - they are emphasizing chest compressions and deemphasizing respiration, especially for the first 20-30 compressions because getting the heart circulating blood is far more important than forcing air into the lungs. Why? Because it can take several compressions to get the heart moving blood around, and the body holds about 5 minutes of oxygen in it at any given time.

 

[Misterbill]

Even a point blank shot to the heart a man can still function. Granted they don't function well but it does take approx 3 minutes to completely bleed out. That's why most police agencies train to double tap. Two to the chest and one to the head.

Plain and simple the guy in the video bled out and died. Bullet placement did it's job. Caliber could have made a difference but then again maybe not. Adrenaline can turn a man into superman for a short period.

Actually most police agencies I've been in contact with teach 5 shots rapid fire somewhere in the general vicinity of COM. This includes BTW the WCJTC.

Personally I'm all about 2 rapid shots to COM and reassess. If needed go to Failure Drill (More to COM or headshot as appropriate.)

Taking that perfect head shot is a pipe dream most of the time with a handgun in the middle of a fight. Sorry, it just is. Lateral movement makes even a COM hard to accomplish. It makes a head shot virtually impossible for most shooters, most of the time. If you're ST 6 material, you shouldn't be wasting your time on this forum. You should be killing BGs.

There are very few people I've met, including champion IPSC guys who could hit a 3x5 (generous at that for Ocular cavity ) target moving unpredictably from side to side.

that's exactly what we're talking about with a headshot. It's the specific part of the brain stem that "turns out the lights" It's a very small target, usually only EVER engaged by snipers with rifles vs a marginally or non-moving targets.

That's how it actually happens.

The "Mozambique drill" sounds great on paper. Doing it in practice, not so much, It's very rare except among the most elite of fighters who shoot literally 500 rounds a week or so and don't even get to TRY unless they're among the best of the best.

 

[Rick4070]

Just curious, did anyone notice the puff of dust off of the pavement in the lower left corner of the frame around the 32 second mark?

 

[sdlsaginaw]

The Rohrbaugh R9 gets a lot of flak for having a heal release on the mag. THIS is a great example of why they designed it that way.

You can just about see the "doh!" when dead man accidentally drops his magazine.

 

[Provincial]

Just curious, did anyone notice the puff of dust off of the pavement in the lower left corner of the frame around the 32 second mark?

Yes, and it appears to be from the officer's gun. At that point, the officer may have been hit, but kept firing.

I wish we could see what was happening while the perp was near the passenger-side fender of the patrol car.

The shots heard clearly on the video probably are from the officer. The perp's shots probably didn't register very well at the microphone.

I sure feel sorry for the kids.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

The "Mozambique drill" sounds great on paper. Doing it in practice, not so much, It's very rare except among the most elite of fighters who shoot literally 500 rounds a week or so and don't even get to TRY unless they're among the best of the best.

Oh, good I don't feel so bad now. I have been failing at my failure drill. Two COM and miss the head a dozen times in a row. When I go out shooting with my dad this weekend I am going to try to let the muzzle rise with the recoil with three rapid shots in a row instead of "bam, bam... bam"

 

[Misterbill]

Oh, good I don't feel so bad now. I have been failing at my failure drill. Two COM and miss the head a dozen times in a row. When I go out shooting with my dad this weekend I am going to try to let the muzzle rise with the recoil with three rapid shots in a row instead of "bam, bam... bam"

Failure drills are great. and there's a time and place for a headshot by all means. Notably hostage shots.

But I'd rather see you take two ot three more shots to COM that you can MAKE, then take a headshot that you'll almost certainly miss because the target is moving laterally and unpredictably.

Look at the video. The whole thing is over within a very few seconds. The BG was hit early on and immediately moved laterally and took cover. Where was the CNS shot going to happen? Possibly at the outset because the BG was kind enough to stay relatively stationary. After that, forget it. And doing all this, in the middle of a gunfight, while needing to move taking cover, under a full adrenaline dump, no. I mean there are certainly people who can do this and my hat's off to them. The average citizen or LEO even if they regularly train? Probably not gonna happen.

Every situation is different and the skills to take that CNS shot are important and worth cultivating. I just encourage people to stay away from any shot they aren't relatively certain is going to hit their target.

I KNOW I can make three shots to COM, even under simulated stress, low-light, moving target etc. I very rarely miss. At worst I get a marginal hit. And yes, I absolutely train failure drills. But failure drills don't have to be solely headshots. Sometimes you'd be better off by either more of the same or targeting joints like the hip, to at least immobilize your opponent. THEN your chances of taking and making that CNS shot went up enormously.

-Just some random thoughts. I'm just glad the cop is alive and very sad this obviously disturbed guy is dead. I wish we could have helped him before he made the decisions he did.

 

[tac]

+1
This has been show many times over & over. It is funny people still believe caliber makes a difference.

Yup. A pal of mine was shot with a .22 LR - straight through the right eyeball, and died on the spot, probably instantly, who knows. The perp, an 18-yo PIRA gunman, took five shots from sundry 7.62x51 FAL/SLR service rifles, and was still alive fifteen minutes later when the ambulance came to take him off to ER. He died there, apparently from blood loss.

tac

 

[redhippie]

The Marine Corp isn't going to the 1911 next year, it's just for special ops guys.



So that means your normal everyday Marine who is issued a sidearm will still be packing the M9.

In American Sniper the author talked about the Marines and clearing houses in Fallujah. There were problems with the M16 being the wrong weapon for the task and preferring an M4. For side arm, he was rocking a .45 Springfield I believe and later a Sig 220. It will be interesting as the newer generation of hi-cap .45 combat handguns start to work their way into the system. Think FN or the new sig 227.

One final note, the .45 is also meant to take your soul and not just your body.

 

[Stomper]

One final note, the .45 is also meant to take your soul and not just your body.

LMAO.... Amen!!

 

[Certaindeaf]

The Rohrbaugh R9 gets a lot of flak for having a heal release on the mag. THIS is a great example of why they designed it that way.

A lot of guns have the "European"/heel magazine catch. I don't know that we know what dead man was sporting.

 

[Riot]

Yes, it's perfectly legal in many circumstances for ANYONE to shoot someone in the back.

I used to think that this was not a good mentality, but you are correct. Just because a suspect runs and turns his back to you after he's shown hostile intent (i.e. pointed a gun at you, shot at you, tried to stab you, etc.) does not mean you cannot shoot them.

Think of it this way, we exchange gun fire then I run...go behind cover and re-engage you. Just because you have the upper hand doesn't mean you cannot take advantage of the situation. Unless under rare circumstances that the bad guy goes "oh crap!", and throws himself on the ground- face first with his hands out, then and only then would I probably not shoot someone in the back that has just showed hostile intent towards me or mine.

But you're going to have to answer a lot more questions about it. And it muddies the waters. The point wasn't about shooting someone in the back, it was about shooting someone when you haven't yet seen a gun that they may not even have. And yes, the advance of the BG in this case, after repeated warnings, with the hand clearly hiding something? Yes, I'd have probably shot him before the gun came out. -Though you can never know. Maybe the freeze would have lasted as long with me as it did with the cop in the video. You know, the part of your brain screaming: "This is not happening!"

I definitely would have had my gun out and pointed center mass while Mr. Weekend Warrior had his hands behind his back and advancing on me, that's for sure!

 

[U201491]

The Rohrbaugh R9 gets a lot of flak for having a heal release on the mag. THIS is a great example of why they designed it that way.

Have one. Its a fine sidearm, and you get used to working that catch quickly.

 

[U201491]

There are only a very few points that will ensure a put down immediately and some exceptions there also.
Direct killing brain shot.
A brain stem shot.
A spinal shot
A mass damage heart shot.
A hip socket shot. (hard to function on one leg)
All are small targets under stress.
I have had to track deer for a qtr mile with a direct heart shot, so that is no guarantee either.

Adrenaline and other chemicals can have strong effects.
There is a good article about the Moro's in the war, where they would tourniquet their arms and legs and parts of their torso to stop blood loss and would continue to fight after many hits.
The British Webley revolver was more effective than what we were using.
Its part of why we adopted the 45ACP . Many times a slower large mass bullet is more effective.

 

[Riot]

Many times a slower large mass bullet is more effective.

Glad that this was brought up...although shot placement is key, nobody will argue that they would rather carry a .22lr than a 9mm would they? Then why can't we agree that heavier bullets are better man stoppers?

This isn't an argument of mag capacity, penetration or accuracy...it's just a mater of grains.

Average grain of a .40 S&W is between 165gr-180gr. Average grain of .45 ACP is 200gr-230gr. Want a faster bullet? Go +P, don't go down in calliber.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.Then why can't we agree that heavier bullets are better man stoppers?.

Because air/backstops don't need to be stopped? A 125 grain .357 magnum isn't really all that heavy but has been about the best stopper out there.
Those go fast. If you want them to go slower, go heavier.

 

[Koda]

Glad that this was brought up...although shot placement is key, nobody will argue that they would rather carry a .22lr than a 9mm would they? Then why can't we agree that heavier bullets are better man stoppers?

This isn't an argument of mag capacity, penetration or accuracy...it's just a mater of grains.

Average grain of a .40 S&W is between 165gr-180gr. Average grain of .45 ACP is 200gr-230gr. Want a faster bullet? Go +P, don't go down in calliber.

Not entirely. If your not going to hit a vital zone then its a balance of what tears the biggest holes vs. mag capacity... the latter is a factor because of the likelihood of hitting anything at all under stress which is why you missed the vital zone. Heavier bullets do not necessarily make the biggest holes.