'Stop-and-Frisk' - good idea or bad?

[41mag]

Everyone has the right to privacy and the right to be innocent until proven guilty.

sort of a convoluted interpretation of the "presumption of innocence until proven guilty" tome of bygone years

 

[Member 5605]

sort of a convoluted interpretation of the "presumption of innocence until proven guilty" tome of bygone years

Yes and no. I tend to oversimplify things and would rather spend time elsewhere than explaining every facet of the defense.

Simplified, you are innocent of any and all crimes unless there is reason beyond doubt of said guilt. The "may be" guilty does not constitute a search or fishing expedition.

I fell victim twice to the Corvallis PD with a stop and frisk. The first time was at night coming back home (walking) from getting some hero's at WinCo. I was told to interlace my fingers behind my back while I was patted down. Being about 23 at the time I didn't make waves but now I'd tell them where to put that mentality and to piss off and let me freely travel. There were no calls that warranted, they just wanted to fish. I lived on the back side of the store, it was a 4 minute walk from the 5 bedroom rental house my family rented to the store.

In their eyes, I was guilty of something otherwise they would not have:

1. Stopped their patrol vehicles
2. Exited and called us to them
3. Asked us many questions about where we were going and what we were doing
4. Detained us from free travel
5. Commanded (not asked) is to turn around and put our hands behind our back
6. Commanded us to interlace our fingers
7. Pat us down.
   violate our 4th amendment
   
   none of this was necessary. Neither myself nor my brother in law who was 17/18 at the time have had any issues with the law to this day. Stop and frisk is wrong.
8. 
   

Furthermore, rights never change. They are inherent, you are born with them. Individuals and governments only choose not to respect them.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

Everybody I know believes they are reasonable. Even the demonstrably most unreasonable of them. A Police officer is not any more "reasonable" in their suspicions than any other person. If anything, I would think they would tend to be more jaded in their suspicions than most given their numerous interactions with people of questionable integrity. Giving them the power to violate someone's 4th amendment rights based solely on their suspicion is unconscionable as it is certainly going to infringe on the God given rights of completely innocent people far more often than it is going to result in them catching a criminal.

 

[Hawaiian]

Why bother with stop and frisk to remove guns from the streets. The courts simply give the gun totting gang banger a slap on the wrist and cut him loose. He gets another gun the next day. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[wired]

I'm a Libertarian. Nothing smacks of government over reach like stop and frisk.

 

[No_Regerts]

My issue with stop and frisk was it was meant to find guns. But in order to initiate the safety pat, there has to be reasonable suspicion. Stop and frisk, as it was conducted in NY, was an abuse of reasonable suspicion in order to get to the pat search. The "nexus" to a safety pat is terribly small compared to what is required to get to a vehicle or residence search.

 

[nwslopoke]

I think the community would be better served by job opportunities, career pathways in schools, and after school activity programs... maybe some basic healthcare to boot.
Lining people up against a wall on a "hunch" sounds like something a fascist would do.

I have seen SOME people, mostly is groups or communities, when promised something good will happen if you just sit and wait will do that. I worked for a small utility-excavation company in Long Beach for a fairly low wage. The promise was once trained we would be able to open our own location for a percentage of the profits. After clearly seeing there was no evidence of them fulfilling their promise I left and made my own path. Some years later I was in the neighborhood and saw the same guys still waiting. By that time I was making 2-3x what they were making. Now it's double even where I was then. I think teaching people to how to be complacent is almost evil. Would pigs roll in mud if they had a better option?

I believe in believing in yourself. Take educated risks. This socialist and "everyone is equal", theory being pushed and taught to young people falls flat under the weakest scrutiny. I was taught America is for the tough, fight hard to prosper, follow your dream but it will not be handed to you. All that said I am still securely middle class but still a long long way from where I was. Where I am today would never have happened by me waiting. That and believing in God.

 

[RicInOR]

Stop and Frisk: Worked!

Look at the murder stats after it was implemented.

They plummeted...can't argue with success!!

But let's not be harsh on criminals, mkay?

Manny, I can't tell, are you being sarcastic /sardonic ?
If you are serious, please provide some evidence of a causal effect.




---

There were cops in NY who practiced flipping knives, in such a way as to get the blade to open a bit. This meant that your stop went from being - ok you have a knife, to you are a felon. There may be some discussion elsewhere on NWFA on this topic. So even a small percentage of cops can cause a large number of violations; what a reasonable person would consider not right.

For the cops it was about job 1, their personal safety.

Gravity Knife Ban Lifted In New York, Police Say They're 'Still Concerned'

The ban on gravity knives in New York has been lifted, and while it's good news for many workers and artisans, it's creating a new problem for some law enforcement officers.

newyork.cbslocal.com

Judge rules New York ‘gravity knife’ ban unconstitutional

A federal judge ruled on Thursday that the state law that bans “gravity” knives is unconstitutional because it’s too difficult to enforce. Federal District Judge Paul Crotty speci…

nypost.com

The ‘Gravity Knife’ Led to Thousands of Questionable Arrests. Now It’s Legal. (Published 2019)

Black and Latino men had often been charged under New York’s unusual ban on the knives, which are opened with a flick of the wrist.

www.nytimes.com

"Over the past 60 years, tens of thousands of black and Latino New Yorkers have been arrested for carrying so-called gravity knives — small, easy-to-access blades that are used by everyone from stagehands to steelworkers. "




As to the S&F; the cop should have to articulate why the stop was made. And that must pass scrutiny - reasonableness of the 4th amendment. I thought he might be carrying a deadly weapon because I know him to be a member of a group of people who statistically perform the greatest number of weapons crimes, is not reasonable.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Stop and Frisk is working in Portland where it is known as proactively patrolling by the Gun Violence Reduction Team

So far in 2020 arresting on average one prohibited possessor a week with a firearm.

PPB Gun Violence Reduction Team Seize One Gun (Photo)

On Thursday, February 20, 2020 at about 7:30 p.m., members of the Gun Violence Reduction Team, (GVRT) were proactively patrolling the area of Northeast 82nd Avenue and Northeast Killingsworth Street d...

www.portlandoregon.gov

Three Guns Seized by GVRT Officers Conducting Directed Patrol (Photo)

Two directed patrol traffic stops by the Gun Violence Reduction Team (GVRT) led to three illegally possessed guns seized and five arrests. <br/><br/>On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 10:50p.m., GVRT memb...

www.portlandoregon.gov

Traffic Stop Leads to Arrest of Felon with Gun (Photo)

A felon with a gun was arrested during a traffic stop by officers with the Gun Violence Reduction Team (GVRT). <br/><br/>On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 10:38p.m., GVRT officers stopped a vehicle on Ea...

www.portlandoregon.gov

Traffic Stop Results in a Gun Seizure and Three Arrests (Photo)

A traffic stop on the border of the Hazelwood, Powellhurst-Gilbert, and Centennial neighborhoods ended with the seizure of an illegally possessed firearm and three arrests. <br/><br/>On Thursday, Janu...

www.portlandoregon.gov

Guns Seized and Arrests Made in Two Traffic Stops (Photo)

Two unrelated traffic stops by officers with the Gun Violence Reduction Team (GVRT) led to arrests and the seizure of guns on Saturday.<br/><br/>On Saturday, January 11, 2020, while on patrol, GVRT of...

www.portlandoregon.gov

Traffic Stop Concludes With Two Handguns Seized And Two Suspects Arrested (Photo)

On Thursday, January 9, 2020, members of the Gun Violence Reduction Team (GVRT) assisted Tactical Operation Division detectives with an investigation that started last year regarding a non-injury shoo...

www.portlandoregon.gov

Gun Team Officers Seize Firearms Overnight (Photo)

While on proactive patrol, officers with the Gun Violence Reduction Team (GVRT) conducted two separate traffic stops in less than 20 minutes that yielded illegally possessed firearms.<br/><br/>On Janu...

www.portlandoregon.gov

If you are not a gang member, then don't worry about it and let the police do their jobs.

 

[awshoot]

To violate your 4th on a whim and allow the Stasi to phish is not patriotic.

The defense "it's only a problem if you have something to hide" is not correct. Everyone has the right to privacy and the right to be innocent until proven guilty.

Yes. Privacy is a self-validating principle.

 

[awshoot]

I know at this point this is a waste of time but, unless you are trying to say you were there, and this was happening to you? Then no, this is not what was happening. When it was being done it was done as Terry Stops. That you do not like this is great, SCOTUS does not agree with you. So you could send them an Email I guess and tell them (SCOTUS) they got it all wrong. Not sure how much good it will do. At this point kind of moot since they have stopped the Terry Stops and the voters there are getting the government they deserve. In many places crime is out of control and the people being made victims are getting just what they asked for. Sad but they get what they deserve.

A Terry Stop requires a reasonably articulable suspicion that the person has been involved in a crime.

NY's stop and frisk policy had no basis in any specific and suspicion the officer could spell out. Unless "looking at cops" is evidence of a crime: