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Stock or Mods for your carry gun?

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Kimber Custom, Jun 3, 2013.

  1. Kimber Custom

    Kimber Custom Vancouver, WA Bronze Vendor Bronze Vendor

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    I was at an event this weekend where I participated in a CCL light class. Basically a review of CCL laws, rights and responsibilities. The instructors promoted having stock guns for CC. While I can see his point I think it is really much ado about nothing. If it's a 'clean' shoot (meaning justifiable) then what difference would it make if I have a 3.5 trigger bar on my Glock?

    As it so happens my EDC is stock but does anyone choose not to carry a particular gun because of internal mods?

    If you do have mods, did you specifically have a licensed smith do the work because it could be used for CC?
     
  2. ZA_Survivalist

    ZA_Survivalist Oregon AK's all day.

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    If i felt I needed a faster pull and quicker followup (more so than any possible box stock platform out there) id probably have a smith do it. That being said i prefer a box stock pistol because i feel if i cant make a box stock pistol work for me under stress ive gpt bigger problems than a longer and sometimes gritty pull.

    James Yeager mentioned this in one of his vids. Its worth a watch (i don't have time to post a link)
     
  3. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    The only mod I have done to my Glock-30 is install Trijicon tritium night sights (myself), other than that the box-stock kit works just fine.

    Would mine qualify as box-stock, or wohld it be "modded myself"?
     
  4. DeanfromOregon

    DeanfromOregon Wilsonville Amateur Ascended Master Platinum Supporter

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    Everything I have ever read states there is no legal precedent for the modified gun myth. I think it started from the glock community regarding setting up a lighter trigger pull. I think it may have started out as an AD prevention thing and gotten twisted.
     
  5. mortar maggot

    mortar maggot western wa Active Member

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    I think it comes down to good shoot or bad shoot, a modified gun should not be an issue.

    If a modified gun is an issue my guess is that it is due to a ND, and well that would be a bad shoot, keep your finger off of the trigger.

    Example- stock gun- bad guy breaks into my house saying he will kill me and the wife, I shoot him dead, good shoot.

    heavily modified race gun with a 1 oz. trigger-(getting ready to head to range) bad guy breaks into my house saying he will kill me and the wife, I shoot him dead, still a good shoot.

    Changing sites-none issue
    changing trigger pull- only an issue if you say you accidently shot somebody, OH THAT WOULD BE A ND, otherwise it would not be accidently shot someone.

    Not a lawyer and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
     
  6. Mr. Ben

    Mr. Ben Snohomish Co. Active Member

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    Only made the sights more visible in the dark, other than that it's factory parts.

    So yes, I modded it.
     
  7. Redcap

    Redcap Lewis County, WA Well-Known Member

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    I tinker with everything.
     
  8. beavertonbuck

    beavertonbuck Beaverton Active Member

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    smile_flash.jpg

    You mean like this?:devil: I think a shooting is going to be either good or bad. I understand the legal implications of a self-defense shooting and I would never try to downplay them, but I think we sometimes become too worried about the aftermath and not the defense part. You have to survive the encounter before you can be charged, so if there is a modification that can make you a faster, more accurate, or more effective shooter then go for it. At least then you can explain your decision to a jury if ever came to that.

    smile_flash.jpg
     
  9. techieguy

    techieguy Well-Known Member

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    What is the difference between your Glock with a 3.5lb ghost connector and my Stock 1911 with a 3.5lb trigger? If anything my 1911 has less travel before the sear breaks the shot than your Glock. So I don't believe a modified pistol has anything to do with it as long you were withing the legal right to defend yourself with deadly force.
     
  10. gaijinsamurai

    gaijinsamurai Beaverton Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    Excellent post, Beavertonbuck.

    For me, it depends on the particular pistol. I usually carry a Glock 19, which is stock. On occasion, I carry a Glock 30 (also stock), or a compact Colt or Kimber 1911A1 (modified).
     
  11. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    ...and if you don't stop that, your palms will get hairy and you'll go blind. ;)
     
  12. FreedomNW

    FreedomNW Portland, OR Member

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    Let's assume that the shot is completely justifiable and there will be no prosecution by the DA. That doesn't prevent a civil suit on behalf of the assailant (or the heirs) in which the other counsel will make every effort to paint you as a crazy vigilante with a tricked-out, irresponsible killing machine in your hand.

    Alternatively, choosing to carry the same pistol, caliber, and factory ammo as your local LE agency will prevent a whole line of questioning into your character, judgement, and mindset. Think which will look better to a jury of people that aren't familiar with firearms:

    1) Having to explain how you as a civilian made the various decisions to customize your pistol, which may or may not be easy to explain. And then to explain why you made a certain choice but your local LE agency did not.

    2) Being able to state, "After consultation with professionals in the industry and local law enforcement trainers, I chose to carry the Glock 19 with 124g +P Gold Dot ammo, which is the same equipment issued to the local deputies due to its proven dependability, accuracy, and effectiveness."

    By no means am I criticizing custom guns, but your high speed IPSC gun isn't the best thing for defensive carry.
     
    ocarolan and (deleted member) like this.
  13. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Kimber Crimson Carry. No mods. Since I do evening/night security I like a laser. Some years ago I had a Glock 33 with an internal laser (also had the .40 barrel). The laser was just too problematic for me and the Glock didn't point correctly for me. The Kimbers are perfect and I shoot them well.
     
  14. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    I'm 66 years old and it hasn't happened yet!
     
  15. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

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    Look, it may be a clean shoot. It may even end up going nowhere. You may get your gun back. You may never have to go to trial. But if you do go to trial in some liberal left wing hamlet like, say, Clackamas, Washington, Multnomah, King County, and an overzealous liberal prosecutor or DA wants to make an example of you, do you want to put ammo in his gun (bad pun, I know)?

    Try to remember, it isn't a jury (grand or otherwise) of your peers, per say. There won't be 12 gun guys in the box, laughing at the cheesy slogan on the end of your barrel or admiring the light trigger pull on your Glock. It will likely be at least 10 people who are totally overwhelmed by guns and will believe any verbal diarrhea the prosecution spews...

    At the very least, have a licensed gunsmith do it. Just my $.02 worth. And as a disclaimer, I am a licensed gunsmith. But my carry guns are stock, for the most part...

    Also, I would differentiate between a defensive shooting inside the house or outside...
     
  16. beavertonbuck

    beavertonbuck Beaverton Active Member

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    I hear that all the time but quite frankly it doesn't make any sense. If we are talking about a civil suit saying that you carry the same gun as LE could open you up to allegations that you a cop wannabe. Again you should carry the gun that allows you the best ability to survive an attack. If that is stock then fine. If you need an aftermarket trigger then go for it. So rather than worrying about what aftermarket parts you have on your gun what if:

    1. You go outside after hearing a bump in the night and find someone breaking into your car. After confronting him there is a brief skirmish and he starts to walk away. If you're amped can you not take the shot?

    2. You wind up pulling a gun on someone that is threatening you. When you start giving directions can you do it in a calm fashion, or do you start yelling how you will blow his head off or going to kill him?

    It is situations like this that are more likely to determine if you are charged or whether a civil suit is successful. If you hate Glocks and can't shoot them to save your life (literally) then it doesn't matter if the Beaverton Police carry them. So carry what you want and can best use. It's the choices you make in the moment that are going to be analyzed for potential criminal or civil prosecution.
     
  17. FreedomNW

    FreedomNW Portland, OR Member

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    Everyone is free to make their own decision on this one.

    But being able to calmly and rationally explain your choice of equipment in a way that makes sense to the members of the jury is what we are talking about. And is doesn't have to be a Glock. But I would suggest it be something stock, and used at least somewhere in the LE community that can be pointed to as a benchmark since the general public would consider them an authoritative source on the matter.

    And them making the case you are a "wannabe" cop isn't realistic unless you also wear your concealed carry badge and drive a black Ford Crown Victoria. It is just to show that you consulted with the "experts" and based upon your investigation chose the "best" tool for the job. Whether fair or not, a jury will put more trust in a LE opinion vs. yours as a civilian regardless of how competent you may be with firearms.

    And again, having the other side show the jury a picture of your competition gun that looks to them like something out of Star Wars, and then to further point out the punisher skulls, infidel language, etc. on the gun, and then to ask you about your hand loads, will not do anything other than distract them from the case at hand and cause them to question your judgement.

    If you are awaken in the middle of the night and have to react quickly, sure, you use what can most quickly stop the threat. But the discussion is about making the choice ahead of time what to EDC. And in my opinion, this choice can't just be limited to what one shoots best at the range. The other factors like legal exposure must also be factored in.
     
  18. ocarolan

    ocarolan Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    "But ladies and gentlemen of the jury... my client needed these grips on his SIG!" :)


    SigSkulls800.jpg
     
  19. BigStick

    BigStick Sherwood, OR Well-Known Member

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    My carry gun is stock, but only because I don't have the money to buy a custom pistol right now. I would have no qualms about carrying custom. I feel confident that I can articulate to the jury that I selected the best tool for me personally to do the job. And the light trigger aids me in not jerking the trigger and missing my target, thereby endangering innocent bystanders.

    Carry what you are most comfortable shooting.
     
  20. pchewn

    pchewn Beaverton Oregon USA Well-Known Member

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    Added laser-grip sights to my Ruger LCP.... I don't see a problem with that.