Still like the Sig 320? 20 Federal agents, police, private citizens file lawsuit

[1775usmc]

I find it crazy that anyone would even think of using a holster that inserts anything into the trigger guard area...
And then do it with a gun with no external safety is next level...

I never claimed people were smart. Haha. Some people carry P320s.

 

[MikeInOr]

Cop: "DROP THE GUN!!!!"
Perp: "It's a 320"
Cop: "Uhh... OK, lay it down on the ground very genteelly."

 

[DirectDrive]

I never claimed people were smart. Haha. Some people carry P320s.

Do your parents know that yer puffin' on Glockium ?

 

[1775usmc]

Do your parents know that yer puffin' on Glockium ?

Yup. They're happy to know that I am guaranteed to wake up tomorrow.

 

[NeoBlackdog]

I've used a Serpa for decades and not had any issues with it. If you keep your finger straight while drawing, like you're supposed to, then there's no issue. Your finger comes out laying alongside the frame above the trigger, right where it should be. If you don't use it correctly, like using the tip of your finger to activate it, then you can have issues regardless of the gun used.

 

[Bobbygun]

I've used a Serpa for decades and not had any issues with it. If you keep your finger straight while drawing, like you're supposed to, then there's no issue. Your finger comes out laying alongside the frame above the trigger, right where it should be. If you don't use it correctly, like using the tip of your finger to activate it, then you can have issues regardless of the gun used.

I like the Serpa as well. I use it for a S&W 642 Airweight. I've carried it on my hip for many a bowhunt, including mountain bike hunts over the past 25 years. Never lost my gun in a lot of miles covered and a few pretty nasty wrecks on my bike. The DAO trigger on the Airweight is pretty stout. I'm not sure I would be as eager to use a Serpa holster with a weapon that had a light trigger and no safety. On one hunt, a friend of mine was using a cheap Uncle Mike's holster and he lost a snub nose Taurus revolver that he had received as a birthday present less than a week before.

 

[Kruel J]

I've used a Serpa for decades and not had any issues with it. If you keep your finger straight while drawing, like you're supposed to, then there's no issue. Your finger comes out laying alongside the frame above the trigger, right where it should be. If you don't use it correctly, like using the tip of your finger to activate it, then you can have issues regardless of the gun used.

They take an amount of getting used to. I never had any problems with mine either but I realized how easily the finger can slide off the lock button and into the guard. People like them and if the right amount of time is dedicated to using it properly I'm sure it will serve just fine.

 

[1911Fanatic]

So how many lawsuits has been dismissed or settled?

And the one lawsuit Sig lost, what was the controversy mentioned behind that one?

Ben Stoeger just came out with a video on that like 9 hours ago. The fire keeps burning. Haha.

View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=iuYK7WwbpzY&si=wW3H7KUN9DY5wofn

Effin idiot, that first one.

 

[lucusloc]

Oops…. Remember this one. Where the "gun wasn't seated in the holster" and the "hood was down" Accourding to SIG….. well here's another angle from a different body cam… don't worry I took a screen shot of the officers holster before picking up the individual and it going off. Looks like the retention strap was completely over the back side of the slide, gun was completely inserted and secured. Oh and that thing that SIG called a "hood" is a TQ…. lol.

Advisory the video has profanity.

View: https://youtu.be/fr7-cwG210c?si=BLMySZxwUPjdXlDj


View attachment 2056630

8:20 is the time stamp. There was an awful lot going on right by that holster when it went off. Looks like the cause was the holster getting pinched between two officers as they wrangled the kid.

I find it interesting that everyone wants to blame the gun when its a Sig, but its is accepted as a holster problem for any other gun. This is a pretty simple Occam's Razor situation, as many L3 retention holsters have had problems with trigger interactions while fully seated. There are holster systems that are flat out banned by many organizations for this reason, SERPA being just one of them. This holster looks to be a strap retention holster, which is all well and good, but look at the holster itself;



The gapage on that trigger area is not safe. I am willing to bet you can get a finger down there and fire the gun while it is in the holster. This seems to be a recurring complaint of certain holster styles when they must accommodate a light. It is also why widebody lights are fading out of favor, as they necessitate a large opening right where the holster is supposed to be tight around the trigger. I just replaced a widebody light on a gun for this reason, as I could not find a holster for it that could accommodate the light as well as keep the trigger area adequately protected. It can be done, but usually not with a monolithic kydex design. Good luck finding someone willing to make a fitted leather holster for every gun/light combo out there (not that leather does not have its own problems. That is a much larger discussion though. Pros and cons abound).

You know what we don't see from any of the commentary on these incidents? An actual explanation as to the cause. There is lots of shade casting, but no actual, factually based assignment of blame. And they are all going after the "easy target" because it is easier to dump on Sig than actually evaluate if this is an unknown and unreproducible gun problem, or if it a known and reproducible holster problem.

 

[1775usmc]

8:20 is the time stamp. There was an awful lot going on right by that holster when it went off. Looks like the cause was the holster getting pinched between two officers as they wrangled the kid.

I find it interesting that everyone wants to blame the gun when its a Sig, but its is accepted as a holster problem for any other gun. This is a pretty simple Occam's Razor situation, as many L3 retention holsters have had problems with trigger interactions while fully seated. There are holster systems that are flat out banned by many organizations for this reason, SERPA being just one of them. This holster looks to be a strap retention holster, which is all well and good, but look at the holster itself;

View attachment 2056812

The gapage on that trigger area is not safe. I am willing to bet you can get a finger down there and fire the gun while it is in the holster. This seems to be a recurring complaint of certain holster styles when they must accommodate a light. It is also why widebody lights are fading out of favor, as they necessitate a large opening right where the holster is supposed to be tight around the trigger. I just replaced a widebody light on a gun for this reason, as I could not find a holster for it that could accommodate the light as well as keep the trigger area adequately protected. It can be done, but usually not with a monolithic kydex design. Good luck finding someone willing to make a fitted leather holster for every gun/light combo out there (not that leather does not have its own problems. That is a much larger discussion though. Pros and cons abound).

You know what we don't see from any of the commentary on these incidents? An actual explanation as to the cause. There is lots of shade casting, but no actual, factually based assignment of blame. And they are all going after the "easy target" because it is easier to dump on Sig than actually evaluate if this is an unknown and unreproducible gun problem, or if it a known and reproducible holster problem.

Love all the excuses. It doesn't matter the proof. All of it will be denied and the blame will be passed.

Doesn't happen with a Glock and a light, a S&W M&P and a light, or a HK and a light in a holster…

Please tell me why.

There will never be "enough" proof for any the deniers. It can happen on camera, in reports, on a flat range in training or completion and it will always be some "other" factor.

Yet none of the other major companies are dealing with it.

Funny.

Sig will continue to loose money, supporters, contracts, ect as the issues continue and blame is laid at feet of the end user (Some rightfully so, others - like the video referenced not so much).

Just cause you can't recreate it every time doesn't validate it never happening. It's been plagued with problems from its inception.

The P320 is ripe with issues. Call me a "SIG hater" or a "Glock fan boy." It doesn't matter. If Glock came out with a brand new line and this was happening and they refused to deal with it I'd be singing the same tune. When it comes to mechanics and safety I have zero brand loyalty.

Not saying all SIG products are bad. But the company itself, its owner, their CS, QC and the P320 is trash.

I won't change your mind and you won't change mine. LOL. I can sleep well at night knowing my gun is a reliable platform. I can't say the same for the P320.

 

[lucusloc]

This is relevant to the discussion:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmwpkJuIR00


The resigned trigger assembly effectively makes the upgraded P320 almost an entirely new design, at least as far as the trigger assembly is concerned. They did not just change parts weigh and some geometry as I initially believed (though that is a significant part of it), they changed the basic functionality of the trigger reset itself in addition to adding a striker catch to the new sear. When Sig makes the claim that the gun cannot go off without the trigger being pulled, this is the reason they have such high confidence in that claim. If the striker "walks off" the first sear it has a whole second "backup sear" it would have to get past in order to fire the cartridge. I did not know that about the new design.

 

[lucusloc]

Love all the excuses. It doesn't matter the proof. All of it will be denied and the blame will be passed.

Doesn't happen with a Glock and a light, a S&W M&P and a light, or a HK and a light in a holster…

Please tell me why.

There will never be "enough" proof for any the deniers. It can happen on camera, in reports, on a flat range in training or completion and it will always be some "other" factor.

Yet none of the other major companies are dealing with it.

Funny.

Sig will continue to loose money, supporters, contracts, ect as the issues continue and blame is laid at feet of the end user (Some rightfully so, others - like the video referenced not so much).

Just cause you can't recreate it every time doesn't validate it never happening. It's been plagued with problems from its inception.

The P320 is ripe with issues. Call me a "SIG hater" or a "Glock fan boy." It doesn't matter. If Glock came out with a brand new line and this was happening and they refused to deal with it I'd be singing the same tune. When it comes to mechanics and safety I have zero brand loyalty.

Not saying all SIG products are bad. But the company itself, its owner, their CS, QC and the P320 is trash.

I won't change your mind and you won't change mine. LOL. I can sleep well at night knowing my gun is a reliable platform. I can't say the same for the P320.

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ENT2X4TeZIM


This is what irritates me about the people who are sh*tting on Sig over this; they ignore every other instance of guns going off in holsters that aren't a Sig. This can and does happen to basically every other brand out there. The only difference is that lawers have latched onto Sig as an easy mark, so the situation gets constantly reinforced in the public consciousness.

No one here is saying you have to like Sig, but what I expect out of any factually based and rational discussion on the topic is consistency. If you have a problem with Sig on an issue, you should have that same problem with every other manufacture on that same issue when it happens to them. When you start protesting the Glock holster discharges I will give some credence to your opinion. Until then it looks like biased Sig bashing because they are an easy target.

 

[Koda]

Doesn't happen with a Glock and a light, a S&W M&P and a light, or a HK and a light in a holster…

Please tell me why.

There will never be "enough" proof for any the deniers. It can happen on camera, in reports, on a flat range in training or completion and it will always be some "other" factor.

Ive heard Glock had plenty of lawsuits, don't know about light/holster combinations. Lucusloc is right about that holster, its a very poor design and something can get into the trigger guard area. Some of the worst designs Ive seen are from even expensive duty holsters.
As far as the proof goes, there has been what like 80 of these Sig incidents now and not one of them has been replicated. A gun that went off due to defect, would be able to replicate the issue since that gun is defective. This Sig Saga has been going on for like 2 years or more now and not one such discharge replicated.


Good lord look at the size of that holster and all it has going on, and that glaring gap at the trigger.

 

[1775usmc]

Excuses. Excuses. Shift the blame. Shift the blame. Look over there! And there! It's the holster! It's the springs! It was gravity! It was the light! The user was wrong! The speed bump was too big! They looked at it wrong! He stood up too fast! They were too hard on it! Everyone else has the same issues! Not my poor SIG! Leave me alone! Continue to move the goal posts!

LOL!

I do get a good laugh at all of this. Please continue. 25 pages of fun.

 

[ARFrog]

...apparently this has been a thing for a while now...

 

[Koda]

Excuses. Excuses. Shift the blame. Shift the blame. Look over there! And there! It's the holster! It's the springs! It was gravity! It was the light! The user was wrong! The speed bump was too big! They looked at it wrong! He stood up too fast! They were too hard on it! Everyone else has the same issues! Not my poor SIG! Leave me alone! Continue to move the goal posts!

LOL!

I do get a good laugh at all of this. Please continue. 25 pages of fun.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

 

[1775usmc]

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

And that may never be replicated in court. I get that.

But they are feeling the heat. Not only from civilian users turning their back on the company but from all the agencies ditching them a going to FN, S&W, and Glock.

One way or another they are feeling the pressure. I don't own one. I have in the past. Never will again.

SIG has already lost atleast 2 court cases. Amounting to 13 million dollars. Who knows how much they have paid in settlements. I'm sure more will follow.

 

[CountryGent]

 

[1775usmc]

When SIG finally eats sh!t I'll be here. Just to say I told you so. Until then I will sit and warm myself by the dumpster fire that is currently taking place.

Anyone got some marshmallows? We could be here for awhile.

 

[lucusloc]

Ive heard Glock had plenty of lawsuits, don't know about light/holster combinations. Lucusloc is right about that holster, its a very poor design and something can get into the trigger guard area. Some of the worst designs Ive seen are from even expensive duty holsters.
As far as the proof goes, there has been what like 80 of these Sig incidents now and not one of them has been replicated. A gun that went off due to defect, would be able to replicate the issue since that gun is defective. This Sig Saga has been going on for like 2 years or more now and not one such discharge replicated.


Good lord look at the size of that holster and all it has going on, and that glaring gap at the trigger.
View attachment 2056857

Some of the same claims being made about Sig now were made about Glocks in the '90s and '00s. Triggers were too sensitive, guns just "went off" in their holsters, even the incomplete cocked striker was enough to set off a cartridge, especially if it had a "soft primer." The list of charges (and lawsuits) against Glocks were legion.

Now everyone pretty universally acknowledges this was not a problem with Glock per se, but rather with unsafe gun handling habits that were masked by more forgiving platforms. Glock even made changes to their trigger to combat the issue, increasing pull weights until the NDs went down. I think some departments got up to insane trigger pulls, into the double digits if memory serves.

Yet we still see no consistency from the detractors. It is all bandwagoning against the most recent target du jour, often without hard evidence, or cherry picked evidence that ignores similar situations from outside the target group. It is incredibly frustrating behavior to witness.