Springfield 1911 GI Questions/Concerns

[iamme]

GI guns were built within spec range and made to swap parts around. Today consumer wants a perfectly flush slide/frame/extractor, etc etc. Parts today aren't machined to drop into every gun and hence require the fitting so often talked about, again one of the requirements of GI as I recall was to have absolute swapability.

It's like giant spoilers on a stock civic- consumers demand looks/appearance over function very often.

I'd vote on check extractor tension before anything else to see if even doing it's job.

 

[saread]

saread, I'd like to see your citations, please. I'd like to read the reference material you're looking at that says military guns were loose.

Sure. I'll provide a sample of the text:

"Naturally, civilian pistols, particularly those manufactured by Colt, are, in most respects, closer toleranced than the military version. From the civilian viewpoint, certain kinds of problems are found in government issue models: generally looser tolerance, softer slides, less carefully fit and, by now, overly worn parts. But, keep in mind, that this design, adopted more than three-quarters of a centruy ago, is still the most copied and reliable automatic pisol in the world."

Kuhnhausen, Jerry; "The Colt .45 Automatic A Shop Manual Volume 1"; Page 32; VSP Publishers; 1990.

And some other interesting information:

"Although it took some time to trickle down, a lot was learned about the mechanics and performance of the ordnance standardized version of the M1911 Pistol during its 50+ years in first line service. Given the foundational benefit of: (a) the ordnance development work in adapting Browning's original M1911 Pistol design to military use; and (b) M1911/M1911A1 Pistol combat service and maintenance history to date, service marksmanship unit armorers and pistolsmiths engaged in the work of pushing the M1911 accuracy and mechanical repeatability envelope have assembled a considerable body of additional data. This practical knowledge, developed at the bench and by trial and error engineering has, in fact, led to a defacto second standardization of the basic M1911 design. This latter commercial standard, incidentally, lies well within original design intent, and if it had to be summed up in a name it could be called the M1911 Pistol optimum performance standard."

Kuhnhausen, Jerry; "The U.S. M1911/M1911A1 Pistols & Commercial M1911 Type Pistols A Shop Manual"; Page 66; VSP Publishers; 1997.

The Kuhnhausen books are really good resource on the 1911.

 

[Jammer Six]

Thanks, Saread.

I've read both those books several times. It's interesting-- I never took those passages to imply that the original design was different than a modern Springer.

 

[saread]

Not different. Manufactured with more refinement I think is a better term. We have better metals, better machining, different customer expectations re: fit and finish, and accuracy; and variations in ammo. I think Kunhausen's remark about a second commercial standard is well taken. Think about some of the things we generally wouldn't buy a modern 1911 without: lowered ejection port, bevelled mag well, throated barrel, long thumb safety, etc. Still JMB's gun, but a little more refined to meet the needs we have.

 

[wichaka]

My experience with Springers is that they are considerably tighter, and considerably more precise. The slide to frame fit is pretty good and the they are not lapped prior to leaving the factory. A little working in to get proper function isn't always necessary, but isn't terribly uncommon either. The goverment issue 1911's were built to run in really ugly conditions, which meant they were pretty loose. Comparing a modern Springfield to a military relic is apples and oranges. Low end Springfields aren't Les Baers or Wilson Combats or Ed Browns or Springfield Custom Shop guns that are lapped and fully function checked before they leave the factory either. But, those guns cost at least $1k more than the GI Springer. You get what you pay for.

Springers are far from precise, if they were I wouldn't have so many of them come across my bench. I stick with I stated in my last post;
"If the gun needs 500+ rounds thru it to be reliable, the gun maker didn't do their job." Send it back and make them do their job.
Its pretty sad when I hear folks talk about how good such makers customer service is, but one shouldn't be on a first name basis with them...that there is a clue.

If the extractor has the proper tension it should hold the case against bolt face and the round should not fall away or droop. This can also be done with the slide off of the gun by inserting a round into the exractor hooks. The round should stay in place witout drooping. If it needs an adjustment, it's actually pretty easy to do. But, you should have someone show you how. Hook preparation has to do with feeding and almost nothing to do with extraction. The ejector can be tuned, but it probably isn't the ejector giving you problems.

1. The extractor does not hold the case against the breech face. Simple test, take any 1911 slide off the gun, install a round and observe.

If one knows how to properly prep an extractor, they will also know the proper relationship the extractor has to the case.

2. Doing the shake, rattle, and roll test will not give consistent accurate results of what the extractor is doing.

3. Hook prep has everything to do with both feeding and extraction.



Bottom line...if the gun is set up properly it'll run, its a machine, it doesn't have a choice.

 

[iamme]

Not saying I disagree per se on extractor but maybe.
10-8 Training Blog: Understanding the 1911 Extractor Test

Not saying it holds it like a strongman, but the extractor should offer "support" to the case.

 

[Jammer Six]

So much for 10-8.

 

[EMP9596]

I have had wheel guns most of my life and briefly got familiar with the 1911 in the military and had not owned one till a few years ago. I have read a lot on the pistol and dug very deep into sites like 1911.org. There is a gentleman who posts on there who has spent years working on these pistols and has shared a lot of wealth on them; his handle is "Tuner". He and Steve (Wichaka) have given me the confidence to dig deeper into these pistols myself. At present I picked up a beater that I am using for my further education on the 1911, and if I mess it up it will be no big loss or I will take it to Steve in pieces, in a box. (< : }-

1911's are not Swiss watches, but it seems each one is an individual in the process of getting it to run trustworthy reliable. Tweek a component and it can affect the pistols reliability in another way. I took a Springer V10 Stainless Ultra Compact that had made two round trips to SA for warranty work and both times it came back not running correctly. The first time it came back with new parts and a clocking extractor. The second time a polished feed ramp with a different problem and still had the clocking extractor. I took it up to Steve and he got it running. I am glad he did as I was seriously thinking of using it for a boat anchor.

My next one to Steve was a brand new SA full size Lightweight Loaded. He did a very nice trigger job which has now settled in at a smidge over 4lbs. He also changed out internals with upgraded components and it is now what I consider a pistol that I can bet my life on. I got to look over his shoulder when he worked on both pistols so I guess what I am trying to say here is that: “He knows what the hell he’s doing if you want a reliable 1911”

Steve is also a Glock armorer and does reliability work on LEO’s firearms.

I do not mean this to be a commercial but just stating my experiance and opinion, and Steve if I have anything wrong here please correct me.

mjd

 

[wichaka]

Thanks for the plug Mike, and I don't take that lightly!


Having been in a few scrapes on the street has made me focus on reliability. In others words...forget the bling, make 'em sing.

My focus has been on mainstream LE firearms, Sig, HK, Glock, Springfield, S&W, and anything 1911...as well as the AR platform and Remington bolt rifles.

I consider myself more of an advanced armorer, but I continue my 'smith education every year. Am not content to get stale here. Am heading back for some more schoolin' the end of next month for another 2 weeks of mirth and merriment!

Mike I have since moved, so I don't have much of a shop anymore...but its coming. But what I do have is open to anyone having problems...I really enjoy helping out people and teaching them the different platforms they have, and getting the most out of them.

My goal is to educate, nothing more. Some don't know, what they don't know...and hopefully I can change that.


I leave ya with my favorite all time saying, the old Snap-On Tools motto;

I'd rather explain the price of quality, than apologize for something less.