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Something I would Like....
- Thread Starter redmistnmysight
- Start date
Its funny you post this...I've been wanting to join a range, but the one closest to me does NOT allow 'rapid fire' (defined by more than 2 shots in close succession)...etc. I like punching holes in paper, but like you, really want a controlled environment type setting to work on the skills you mention. Jacobe group does some training like this I think, but I don't know where they do the live round shooting at. As much as I like my redneck spot in the woods to practice this stuff, I know it'll be closed one day.
Anyone else have suggestions?
Anyone else have suggestions?
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There's actually a place nearby setup for something like that called "Northwest Tactical" down in Kent. It's been a few years since I've been there but a couple quick web searches indicate that they still exist. The founder, citing complaints about the lack of realistic urban training grounds for police and military, built a small city block inside a warehouse and hires it out to police, military and private security (all of whom primarily use gunpowder based paintball ammo on the course) as well as the general public (who use Airsoft replicas firing plastic BBs).
Airsoft being what it is, you will of course encounter everything from adults with military experience who take their hobby and tactics very seriously to teenagers just screwing around.
I'm not sure if an individual could rent out the course for their own use or for a small private group; I recall that way back when they opened, a lot of what they could and couldn't do was dictated by their always nervous insurers...
Airsoft being what it is, you will of course encounter everything from adults with military experience who take their hobby and tactics very seriously to teenagers just screwing around.
I'm not sure if an individual could rent out the course for their own use or for a small private group; I recall that way back when they opened, a lot of what they could and couldn't do was dictated by their always nervous insurers...
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- Thread Starter
- #4
I feel that the insurance would be the biggest obstacle. I think it would be great to open a range or find a range with this exclusively for live fire. 1 person enters the course and eliminates or protects individuals they encounter. No paintball or anything, just for the die hard home defense or tactical bum. I wonder if something like that is legal in a indoor range.
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Hum...I wonder who around here has a full tactical simulator (aka shoot house) that can be re-configured into 50 + different room layouts with both static and animated realistic threats, potential threats and non-threats? If I recall correctly a person or groups of individuals can go through this building with live fire (their own handgun, rifle/carbine or shotgun) and also in "full on Force-on-Force" against real humans using Airsoft...hum...granted family members are not role playing at this facility but professional actor/instructors are.
If I remember correctly...in some scenarios they use the FIST suit in force-on-force so you might, assuming your firearms runs out or has a malfunction, have to go to "hands-on".
All kidding aside after running force-on-force scenario based training using both professional and amatuer actors (like your own family members) there is a world of difference between the two. Family members or "buddies" often do not have the capacity to realistic role play...it takes a given amount of training, discipline and skill to accurately role play a victim, scared bystander, potential threat or real threat. What works most effectively is to have the defender with their pistol (on in force on force Airsoft) be accompanied by a family member(s) so they can begin to work out the communication and logistical issues that do pop up. I can tell you if family members have not trained together then when a catostrophic event (home invasion or fire for example) takes place it is usually utter choas and confusion. It is not uncommon to see family members unintentionally work AGAINST each other such as cross in front of the muzzle, get too close to a threat, failing to scan and search an assigned area of responsibility, compromise the defender's position by breaking light and noise discipline, or many others etc. Typically one can expect during such an event (without training and practice) a significant break down in communication, coordination, and collobration.
Working inside an enclosed structure both in a real situation and under simulated conditions for training is HIGHLY dangerous and should only be administered by competent professionals. This is not a shameless plug but reality! Yes we have insurance but many schools do not! Before going check out a facilities safety record and ask if they have insurance. That says a lot about the organization.
Keep in mind, setting up one of these on your own, or going to a local range who doesn't have qualified individuals to run a simulator can risk teaching you or allowing you to do incorrect, stupid or just plain dangerous tactics and strategies unless the admistrator/instructors do have a good grasp of what is going on from a safety, liability, tactical, educational, and pragmatic approach. While a lot of fun and instructional value...working in enclosed structures is very dangerous. Unfortunately people have been killed or seriously injuried training in these. People "don't know, what they don't know" and the reality is running a simulator such as you propose is a very complicated and dangerous operation. Not just anyone can do this from a safety and educational perspective. I've even worked with seasoned trainers who "don't understand." ONCE, and I mean ONCE we allowed seasoned professional LEO trainers from a large agency come down and use our tactical simulator....we're talking "trained professional instructors" who do this for a living. We only allowed this once...it was a rodeo! After this episode we set up a policy that only qualified senior OFA instructors can operate the simulator. So, once again - NOT anyone (instructor or not) can do this safely and from a realistic educational perspective. Keep this in mind before you step through the door somewhere!
At OFA we only have a select few instructors who are qualified (after years of training and practice) to run students through our simulator called the "Adjudicator" which means "you will be judged."
If I remember correctly...in some scenarios they use the FIST suit in force-on-force so you might, assuming your firearms runs out or has a malfunction, have to go to "hands-on".
All kidding aside after running force-on-force scenario based training using both professional and amatuer actors (like your own family members) there is a world of difference between the two. Family members or "buddies" often do not have the capacity to realistic role play...it takes a given amount of training, discipline and skill to accurately role play a victim, scared bystander, potential threat or real threat. What works most effectively is to have the defender with their pistol (on in force on force Airsoft) be accompanied by a family member(s) so they can begin to work out the communication and logistical issues that do pop up. I can tell you if family members have not trained together then when a catostrophic event (home invasion or fire for example) takes place it is usually utter choas and confusion. It is not uncommon to see family members unintentionally work AGAINST each other such as cross in front of the muzzle, get too close to a threat, failing to scan and search an assigned area of responsibility, compromise the defender's position by breaking light and noise discipline, or many others etc. Typically one can expect during such an event (without training and practice) a significant break down in communication, coordination, and collobration.
Working inside an enclosed structure both in a real situation and under simulated conditions for training is HIGHLY dangerous and should only be administered by competent professionals. This is not a shameless plug but reality! Yes we have insurance but many schools do not! Before going check out a facilities safety record and ask if they have insurance. That says a lot about the organization.
Keep in mind, setting up one of these on your own, or going to a local range who doesn't have qualified individuals to run a simulator can risk teaching you or allowing you to do incorrect, stupid or just plain dangerous tactics and strategies unless the admistrator/instructors do have a good grasp of what is going on from a safety, liability, tactical, educational, and pragmatic approach. While a lot of fun and instructional value...working in enclosed structures is very dangerous. Unfortunately people have been killed or seriously injuried training in these. People "don't know, what they don't know" and the reality is running a simulator such as you propose is a very complicated and dangerous operation. Not just anyone can do this from a safety and educational perspective. I've even worked with seasoned trainers who "don't understand." ONCE, and I mean ONCE we allowed seasoned professional LEO trainers from a large agency come down and use our tactical simulator....we're talking "trained professional instructors" who do this for a living. We only allowed this once...it was a rodeo! After this episode we set up a policy that only qualified senior OFA instructors can operate the simulator. So, once again - NOT anyone (instructor or not) can do this safely and from a realistic educational perspective. Keep this in mind before you step through the door somewhere!
At OFA we only have a select few instructors who are qualified (after years of training and practice) to run students through our simulator called the "Adjudicator" which means "you will be judged."
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Ya all the reason above are why I havent joined a range either. No rapid fire, cant walk up on your target, handgun targets have to be 50', no multipul targets or CQB. Oh ya and no pairs or buddy training or even squad (team) training. And that could also offer the long range side as well. Lots of things you can only really do up in the hills (Memaloops) with home made target stands so you can have more then one at different ranges. Ya lots of thing you can think of.
But like you said cost and Ins. might be the tough parts cause it still has to be reasonably priced to let anyone who mants to use it have a chance without feeling like th have to save up for 6 months.
Good thread Redmistnmysight
But like you said cost and Ins. might be the tough parts cause it still has to be reasonably priced to let anyone who mants to use it have a chance without feeling like th have to save up for 6 months.
Good thread Redmistnmysight
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- Thread Starter
- #7
Cost would be really high, but so are most ranges. Im not to keen on paying 250.00$ a season to go shoot more money. But Im seriously considering putting up the cash for something like this. One thing I know I do not want are inexperienced trainers or trainees around me, this really should be reserved for students that have accomplished a set of training classes towards this. All this being said I agree that firearms training without hand to hand training is running a huge risk that you and your family will be a victim. The mention of just practicing and reviewing with your loved ones is hugely important. The human brain functions on concepts already learned, so if someone has never done anything like what they are about to do, it is highly likely that they will fail. If we fail in a circumstance I am referring to you may die. I agree strongly that arrangments between yourself and others is very important.
Great input guys, keep it coming.
Great input guys, keep it coming.
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- Thread Starter
- #8
Also, in regards to range rules...
I hate most of the rules, but having been shooting in a congested area without rules has shown me I should have more respect for them. Range rules are tough but you never know when sum schmuck is going to just walk right out in front of lead.
I hate most of the rules, but having been shooting in a congested area without rules has shown me I should have more respect for them. Range rules are tough but you never know when sum schmuck is going to just walk right out in front of lead.
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A clarification would be that the "paintball" the Military and LEO have available is, in my opinion, better than standard live fire. In many cases, they can swap out only the barrel assembly on their service weapons and then fire gunpowder-based paintballs out of them in simulated force on force encounters. Throw in some former military folks as actors and you have a pretty incredible training situation compared to live fire against pop-up targets.
I have no idea if that equipment is even readily available to civilians though, much less if anyone's insurance would allow them to stage that type of training for the general public.
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Look into the ARPC (Albany Rifle and Pistol Club)... Their prices are very reasonable in my opinion. I am a member there and do moving and multi target drills on a regular basis at their north range. They have a long gun range out to 200 yards, but moving drills are not possible there. However, the north range is actually multiple bays. Each bay is about 25 yards wide by 25-30 yards out.
Depending on the day and time you go there, it is very possible to get an entire bay to yourself. Actually, I have not had to share one yet and I shoot there at least once a week for the last 6 months. They recently made these north ranges available to all calibers (used to be pistol only). Which means that you can train with your carbine there too.
That being said, there is no "shoot house" per say... but plenty of drills can be done easily. I regularly do move and shoot, malfunction drills, multi target, and transition drills.
Lastly, I have just recently sent off a couple emails to both Suarez International, and Magpul Dynamics. I am going to try and get both of them out to the APRC alternating every month or so if at all possible to give some classes. Anyone who wants more info on this when I hear back from them just send me a PM.
Oh and the website is... http://www.arpc.info/index.php
- AJ
Depending on the day and time you go there, it is very possible to get an entire bay to yourself. Actually, I have not had to share one yet and I shoot there at least once a week for the last 6 months. They recently made these north ranges available to all calibers (used to be pistol only). Which means that you can train with your carbine there too.
That being said, there is no "shoot house" per say... but plenty of drills can be done easily. I regularly do move and shoot, malfunction drills, multi target, and transition drills.
Lastly, I have just recently sent off a couple emails to both Suarez International, and Magpul Dynamics. I am going to try and get both of them out to the APRC alternating every month or so if at all possible to give some classes. Anyone who wants more info on this when I hear back from them just send me a PM.
Oh and the website is... http://www.arpc.info/index.php
- AJ
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Yes not everyone can afford to pay hunders every year just to be able to shoot at a desent range.. I know I couldnt before and still would have trouble today, even though I have a great paying job. Family, home and food all come before my toys is (weapons).. I would love to train at OFA but like everything else, bills before fun.
Douglas Ridge Rifle Club $330.00 per yr
Tri-County Gun Club $295.00 per yr
OFA (varies on course) $2400.00 to complete handgun +ammo(3500)
$1000.00 for Tac Rifle. +ammo(2700 rifle 500 shotgun).
Im not complaining about the cost, just stating that not everyone has 8 hours the $, plus location. (2hr drive for me to get there.)
agreed..
All that said. My training came from the one person I trusted with everything. My father, sgt-mgr US Army 58-70. 6 tours in NAM. And fitting to the way he lived died 4th of July last year. Even though I trust what he tought me, I know i can and want to be better.
http://www.northwestfirearms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8009
<broken link removed>
Although it is a simulation, for the cost of a couple boxes of ammo you could get in some training with a variety of situations.
<broken link removed>
Although it is a simulation, for the cost of a couple boxes of ammo you could get in some training with a variety of situations.
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