so this year it's 9mm

[DuneHopper]

As a Patriot once said, "aim small, miss small" [emoji2]

Its one of the Few movies with Mel I really enjoy well other then Mad Max.

 

[YOURSUPREMECOMMANDER]

I have been shot with a bb gun and to me they seem pretty accurate. Hurt like h3ll but did not do any damage except to piss me off. Accuracy with out power in my opinion is a poor stopper.

Some things to consider.............

The average handgun fight happens at a distance of 7 yards.
Leo's miss there intended target about 75% of shots fired.
I have shot many critters big and small, and a head shot always folds um the spot. Especially at 7 yards!
I spoke with a fish and game employee once who told me that when they have to put down a captured bear - it's usually a 22LR to the head.
There are many studies on the internet showing the statistics. It does not matter what caliber a person is shot with, those people have 4 to 10 seconds to return fire before lights out - sometimes much longer, unless it's a CNS shot. In that time they can return fire and empty a magazine.
Also, look up the stats of just how many people get killed each year with a 22, compared to other calibers, you will be surprised.
People who claim getting shot in the head with a 22 will just piss them off, have not ben shot in the head with a 22. the people that have been shot in the head with a 22 are most likely dead.

 

[40calruler]

Some things to consider.............

The average handgun fight happens at a distance of 7 yards.
Leo's miss there intended target about 75% of shots fired.
I have shot many critters big and small, and a head shot always folds um the spot. Especially at 7 yards!
I spoke with a fish and game employee once who told me that when they have to put down a captured bear - it's usually a 22LR to the head.
There are many studies on the internet showing the statistics. It does not matter what caliber a person is shot with, those people have 4 to 10 seconds to return fire before lights out - sometimes much longer, unless it's a CNS shot. In that time they can return fire and empty a magazine.
Also, look up the stats of just how many people get killed each year with a 22, compared to other calibers, you will be surprised.
People who claim getting shot in the head with a 22 will just piss them off, have not ben shot in the head with a 22. the people that have been shot in the head with a 22 are most likely dead.

Who claims that?!! I thought I read all the posts on here and I must have missed the guy or gal saying a .22lr would just make them mad. Only way I can see that is if you missed by being over confident in your low recoil gun.
I agree that it is all about shot placement and I carry .22lr in a derringer when I have to be extremely concealed but I will stick with .357 or 40 or .380 for all of my bad guy concerns if I can help it. Placement is key but a bigger hole leads to more blood loss=bad guy passing out quicker.

Carry what you like but consider the difference in an attacker getting shot in the shoulder with a .22lr vs a 9mm, 40, or 45. You will damn sure notice a difference in reaction with that missed shot. The larger calibers will at least make them think a little harder....or just hurt a lot more. Either way that is how I roll when it comes to picking caliber.

I find the LCR .357 with crimson trace and tritium sight to be a great way to say "every once in a while you run into someone you just should not have effed with.... and that's me" and it will let everyone for miles know that someone made a mistake. Some people carry a rape whistle to let people know they are in trouble. I prefer the sound of a .357 mag to let people know it is time to run and call the po po.

 

[JRuby]

Deer have been shot with a 22 and a few have died immediately. Many have died much latter on. Some were hit perfectly most were not. Because a few deet died with a perfect shot does that makes a 22 a good deer rifle? I think not. Use what you will but realize why no law enforcement association arms thier people with a 22.

 

[40calruler]

Deer have been shot with a 22 and a few have died immediately. Many have died much latter on. Some were hit perfectly most were not. Because a few deet died with a perfect shot does that makes a 22 a good deer rifle? I think not. Use what you will but realize why no law enforcement association arms thier people with a 22.

But I do hear through cop friends that the modern "gangster" has been using a 22 more and more for noise and fast shooting.

Those guys know their guns. Anyone that shoots sideways has my respect!

 

[etrain16]

After all this discussion, I would be curious to know how many people have been shot, even one time, by any caliber, and continued to fight. Everyone knows about the FBI shootout, and that was a unique situation. But look at the myriad videos on YT of shootings recorded on camera. Seems to me, most folks, if not immediately incapacitated, tuck tail and run as long as their body will let them.

I recall the self-defense shooting of an attempted robbery at an internet cafe a few years ago. Two baddies storm in, one with a gun, one with a bat, demanding money, when one older dude whips out a .380 and manages to hit both of them. They just about trampled each other trying to get away, dropping their gun (what appears to be a 'Glock' Hi-Point) Both were caught and both had been shot, though neither one suffered a fatal injury.

The .380, which isn't even under consideration in this thread, is felt by many to be too weak as a defensive round. And that may be true when talking about knockdown power or immediate incapacitation. But the whole idea is to stop the threat, period. And when facing down the muzzle of a gun, the bad guy doesn't really know what you've got, and in most cases, really won't care - he doesn't want to get shot, period.

Honestly, the likelihood of any of us getting into a situation where we put a round or two in a bad guy and he decides to keep fighting, is very small. Being armed with anything is better than nothing. And no caliber you carry is any guarantee of your survival. Hitting your target will always be the critical link. A missed .45, .40 or 9mm won't do much damage, but even that miss is likely to cause the bad guy to turn tail and run. Anything to stop the threat. That's what I think about. And I think most bad guys are just lame a$$ punks that don't have a lick of bravery, just a head full of foolish stupidity, something that seems to turn around quickly when someone fights back, especially with a gun.

Sure, you could throw out some 'what if' arguments - what if they're high on drug? What if they have body armor? What if they're armed with a full auto AK? All of those are possible, but in reality, not very likely. If those were common, we'd not be talking about pistols, but which battle rifle we like to keep slung over our shoulders all day.

I carry a 9mm compact with 12+1 and feel very comfortable that it is more than adequate to stop most threats. If I find myself in a situation like the FBI shootout, I don't think it would matter much which caliber I carry, because I'm not likely to come out of it anyway. Just my 2 cents.

In case you haven't seen it:

 

[Just Jim]

It just irks me all the BS the FBI went through to come up with the 40 and now they go back to the 9mm. All the money spent and the scientific justification with test on every bullet and now every positive thing they said is bs. The 40 was basically developed for police agencies and proclaimed as their perfect caliber.

Next big failure to stop they will just spend the money again to switch calibers, it's our money so no big deal....

 

[40calruler]

It just irks me all the BS the FBI went through to come up with the 40 and now they go back to the 9mm. All the money spent and the scientific justification with test on every bullet and now every positive thing they said is bs. The 40 was basically developed for police agencies and proclaimed as their perfect caliber.

Next big failure to stop they will just spend the money again to switch calibers, it's our money so no big deal....

It is all bogus to me. I think they need to train their people to shoot a whole lot better. I have shot next to plenty of cops at the range and for the most part they are decent at best. Some of the "caliber problems" I hear of would likely be solved with a little bit of accuracy.

Just my feeling after watching quite a few shoot their guns. I should not be getting MUCH better groups than the two cops next to me.

 

[etrain16]

It just irks me all the BS the FBI went through to come up with the 40 and now they go back to the 9mm. All the money spent and the scientific justification with test on every bullet and now every positive thing they said is bs. The 40 was basically developed for police agencies and proclaimed as their perfect caliber.

Next big failure to stop they will just spend the money again to switch calibers, it's our money so no big deal....

And maybe that's the point of the whole discussion. The caliber wasn't necessarily the big issue here. The bigger issue was that they brought pistols to a rifle fight, and found themselves up against a very unique bad guy who is one of the few people that could keep fighting after getting shot.

It's just the common way government works. If you have a bad experience, find something to blame, then throw a bunch of money at making it better. Only problem is that about all they seem to do is spend money, without making things better. Re-evaluating their tactics, heavier arms, and training would have been money better spent.

It's government, honestly, what else would you expect?

 

[Just Jim]

It's been a long time since the Miami gunfight, idiots will have to learn again at the cost of lives and millions of dollars what works and what doesnt.

Edited to add, I like the 9mm, I really do in the right platform but it makes people uncomfortable when I carry the full auto....

 

[etrain16]

It's been a long time since the Miami gunfight, idiots will have to learn again at the cost of lives and millions of dollars what works and what doesnt.

I don't know, with the more heavily 'militarized' style police forces, do they really need to be all that worried about their pistol rounds? Aren't most cops equipped with AR style rifles as standard equipment in their cars?

In any case, the government knows all too well how to throw good money after bad. It stinks, especially since there is nothing we can do to stop them.

 

[40calruler]

It's been a long time since the Miami gunfight, idiots will have to learn again at the cost of lives and millions of dollars what works and what doesnt.

And if that is not enough none of us will be finding 9mm on shelves anytime soon. Thanks to ignorance of our wonderful government.

I know a lot of folks that have had anxiety disorders and other issues that do not make them any danger with a gun. Scares me to think just because some of my family went to a shrink for help they could lose their rights. Makes you want to not take care of any health issues that might be seen as making you a "danger" to others.

Who on this board is NOT a danger to others if crossed wrong?

 

[40calruler]

I don't know, with the more heavily 'militarized' style police forces, do they really need to be all that worried about their pistol rounds? Aren't most cops equipped with AR style rifles as standard equipment in their cars?

In any case, the government knows all too well how to throw good money after bad. It stinks, especially since there is nothing we can do to stop them.

But but then they would have to be trained to KNOW when to grab that rifle vs popping shots like crazy with their Glock. Training...pfft that is for chumps.

 

[Norm0931]

It's been a long time since the Miami gunfight, idiots will have to learn again at the cost of lives and millions of dollars what works and what doesnt.

Edited to add, I like the 9mm, I really do in the right platform but it makes people uncomfortable when I carry the full auto....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Reading through the Wikipedia article about it only 3 of the agents were carrying 9mm and out of the 11 rounds that struck to the robbers, 2 for Maddox and 9 for Platt, only 2 of them were 9mm. Furthermore, both those rounds were to the arm. The rest of the hits were all with 38 special. IMO, the FBI was looking for a scapegoat.

 

[DuneHopper]

I think what is being missed in the discussion is cover when it comes to a 22LR to be deadly you need to things. no obstructions and good placement.

This goes along the lines of the all famous 223 vs 762x39 discussions. If you are in an uninstructed or minimal obstruction a 223 is a fine round. However if you are behind barriers, cars etc the 223 will lose energy and lethal ability will be affected the 762x39 serves to be less accurate in some cases but with better penetration.

It pretty basic physics,

Mass
Energy
Impact material
Distance

Other factors are considered such as bullet material design.
Every single firearm used has a lethal limit and a non-lethal limit.
There are varied calibers for a reason, each serves a minimal and maximum service ability.
Use a Caliber at or near its capacity equals putting yourself in a situation of being our gunned
so to speak. Will a 22lr kill yes, however the 22lr has a much lower threshold of lethal ability when based on the four basics I gave above. The above also works when thinking 9mm vs 40sw there
are limits that a 9mm would meet far before a 40sw. Just like a 40Sw would meet limits before a 45ACP. To but a firearm do not only think the basic stuff comfort, price, ammo, caliber. One must examine the minimum and maximum abilities of that firearm, using the four I mentioned above.

Fun !

 

[chemist]

The fact that FBI still waffles between performance versus capacity is proof positive that the Caliber Wars will never be settled.

For the mathematically challenged: .452^2/.355^2= 1.6. The wound channel of a .45 will always be 60% larger in cross-sectional area than a comparable 9mm.

 

[Certaindeaf]

The fact that FBI still waffles between performance versus capacity is proof positive that the Caliber Wars will never be settled.

For the mathematically challenged: .452^2/.355^2= 1.6. The wound channel of a .45 will always be 60% larger in cross-sectional area than a comparable 9mm.

Well that's the issue.. they are not so simplistically comparable since the 9 expands to .75 due to its speed and the .45 expands to.. 45.. due to its slug-like non-speed. lol

 

[JRuby]

You hope it expands there are no guarantees on thst one.

 

[chemist]

Certaindeaf, that's just plain wrong. The bullet design doesn't drop from Heaven, it's engineered specifically for the performance envelope of the cartridge it fits. A .45 round is made to expand at lower velocity and thus lower hydraulic force than a .357.

When I fire a JHP from a short barrel into a jug, it may expand only partially. When I fire the same round from a full-length barrel, it opens up totally and reliably to a full 1.5 times the original diameter. When I fire the same round out of a carbine barrel, it wraps all the way back, over-expanding if you like, so the petals reach back to touch the base and the overall size is much less than 1.5X.

It's the same with any cartridge, but pistol JHP expansion is the most sensitive to velocity because handgun rounds are all so marginal.

 

[Just Jim]

They design defensive ammo to expand. If it doesn't expand it is no better than ball ammo. It's high dollar stuff but if it fails there is no warranty