so this year it's 9mm

[Stomper]

Well, "they" do say your pistol is for fighting your way to your rifle, then the real fighting commences.

 

[slimmer13]

Oh good a caliber discussion.

You get hit with a corolla or a F350, you're just as dead, but im not sure how you can argue with which one has more kinetic energy on impact. I too will stick with my .45 as my bump in the night gun.

 

[Certaindeaf]

In cars the old song goes "Ain't no substitute for Cubic Inches" and I would remind most that our 9 MM choices are normally 115, 124 or 147 Grain while the 40 has the most common round at 165 or 180 Grain. More is More. I might buy another Glock and if I do I think it will be a 23, but more likely a XD Mod 2 in 45. More is More

More of what? Perhaps you've failed to read the studies. Indeed, 3-4 measurable/quantifiable factors are better than simple dead weight/diameter.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I will stick with the old war horse because I have faith in it. I will stick with the 45 ACP because it has and will continue to do its job without fancy bullets and special conditions.

I've never liked the .45acp because the slide makes a very poor front sight for even 75 yard shots. Elmer Keith did use the .45acp but only very sparingly, and at close range. It was his squirrel gun for a while.

 

[RVTECH]

not sure how you can argue with which one has more kinetic energy on impact.

Correct me if I am wrong but if a round has more velocity and FT LBS of energy with a LIGHTER bullet does that not translate into more kinetic energy or is weight and size - regardless of speed - the influencing factor?

 

[Certaindeaf]

The switch to the 10mm/40S&W was based upon the "failure" of one 9MM round fired by Agent Dove from a range of about 15 yards that went through Platts upper arm, into his lung, and stopped just short of his heart. This was a fatal wound but not instantly incapacitating. Platt absorbed multiple hits to various parts of his body from .38+P rounds and 00 buck before finally being stopped by a point-blank chest shot with a .38+P. Platt was determined to keep fighting no matter what, and in this case I think 9mm's with higher capacity and faster reloads would have served the officers better than lower-capacity guns with more theoretical "stopping power."

I know.. his knee didn't jerk so they did it for us. lol.
"But in that whole cluster if that round (that was lethal.. things were happening fast and stupid) had just gone another inch!".
Yea, it was a blame/scapegoat day for the FBI on that epic fail of a day. And here we are.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Correct me if I am wrong but if a round has more velocity and FT LBS of energy with a LIGHTER bullet does that not translate into more kinetic energy or is weight and size - regardless of speed - the influencing factor?

Even old dead Elmer noticed that a frangible 110 .357 going 1500fps would make a jackrabbit's eyeballs go into orbit with a gutshot. 115gr 9mm goes 1550.
The old undisputed killer 110gr .357 going like what, 13-1500?.. is still the undisputed stopper. kinda.. note what I said just before that.. and they hold like 18 rounds

 

[Just Jim]

Correct me if I am wrong but if a round has more velocity and FT LBS of energy with a LIGHTER bullet does that not translate into more kinetic energy or is weight and size - regardless of speed - the influencing factor?

Just opinion now so don't think I am quoting a gosphel. Building a cartridge gun combination that fits on the belt and is fired from the hands with accuracy enough to hit a target seems to limit the builders to lower powered cartridges. The 5.7 looked good but doesn't seem to be what the government wants. There are a lot of tradeoffs to fit criteria and to date they can't seem to fit something together that will hit the target in the hands of a man scared and fighting for his life.

I believe some day they will either have to change their ways of thinking or their tactics.

 

[Certaindeaf]

This all assumes access to state of the art ammunition. What if you are stuck somwhere you can only find older technology ammo?

 

[Just Jim]

Just thinking back on the changes is really a study in history. Going from revolvers to automatics for the FBI was a big change. Then bullets became a study under numerous methods. Everything from going to the morgue and studying wound channels along with the action reports to piling up balistic jeliten to study bullets in a simulated body.

All that wasn't enough so they came up with a goat kill in Europe to test which bullet at the time was the best. Now decades down the road they have worked on design and material for bullets and they have brought out many more semi auto pistols. So the right combination might be out there but how are you going to choose?

 

[Certaindeaf]

This all assumes access to state of the art ammunition. What if you are stuck somwhere you can only find older technology ammo?

"Stuck"? Where do you live? Even in war (sorry, Rambo) one is lucky to trade one's life for another.. historically. That's code for 1/1.
I would imagine that you might be wise and fair better than not to have a whole magazine loaded with proper ammunition stuck into your handgun.
But let's say you are in Latvia.. or one of the other couple hundred lands.. your .45 or .40 will make oh such a special rock! good luck

 

[JRuby]

The situation. For me I live in America and in America when the ammo rush was on yoi weren't able to find 9mm but I had no problem with 40 or 45. On top of that I did not need specialty bullets to make my pistol dependable 45acp fmj has been doing its job longer than most of us have been alive.

 

[Just Jim]

Just opinion but I think a lot of the changes made were a failure in FBI politics. When they went to 10mm then forty the guns they started with were probably chosen due to politics. Smith and Wesson had political muscle back then but unfortunately the guns they had didn't fit the caliber.

The Smiths of those days were big and heavy plus the barrel sat way to high above the grip which caused muzzle flip in weaker hands. Glock came along and of course the design was better than the old smiths. A 1911 would have been better but there wasn't a reliable double action design and the government was convinced that double action was safer.

Now they find out to hit your target you have to train. And training wears out guns so of course they will find a cheaper way. 9mm is cheaper and don't kick as bad as a forty does in the same gun. They are going to use the 9 until another failure and by that time there will be a forty designed to not self destruct with use. Just opinion from watching them for decades.

 

[Flopsweat]

The situation. For me I live in America and in America when the ammo rush was on yoi weren't able to find 9mm but I had no problem with 40 or 45. On top of that I did not need specialty bullets to make my pistol dependable 45acp fmj has been doing its job longer than most of us have been alive.

So you should probably buy some now then...

 

[JRuby]

I agree and have been.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

More than difficult to hit the sweet spots when you are getting the shizz shot out of you! You know that a lot of Fed's and LEO's practice the minimum. I'm afraid that these day I practice less than I should, too! It's worrysome to me so while I can't go as much as I'd like I expend much more ammunition and try to concentrate all the more! That's tough after a stroke, etc. As all have said, it's ALL shot placement. I pray that none of us ever need the skills that we practice for real buisness! SRG

 

[Just Jim]

Best guy I ever read about handguns was Elmer Keith. He hunted and killed a lot of animals and studied what works and what didnt. From what I read he designed and tested handgun bullets to get the most out of them. None of his bullets are used in handgun ammo today, they call them Keith style but they are not Keith bullets.

He took the limited power of the handgun and gave it the best bullet design. He used revolvers.

 

[orygun]

Even old dead Elmer noticed that a frangible 110 .357 going 1500fps would make a jackrabbit's eyeballs go into orbit with a gutshot. 115gr 9mm goes 1550.
The old undisputed killer 110gr .357 going like what, 13-1500?.. is still the undisputed stopper. kinda.. note what I said just before that.. and they hold like 18 rounds

Nope. the king of "one shot stops" was/is? the 125gr .357.
But like normal, an auto cartridge just doesn't develop the speed/energy of a Magnum revolver cartridge.
Some people say a 10mm is the equal of the 41 Mag. I guess they've never shot them both over a chrono.

I sold my last .357 to cover the cost of a 10mm. What a mistake that was...

 

[jbett98]

Once Billary buys her way into office, the only thing you'll be able to use for personal defense is a steak knife.
So debates on what caliber is best will be a moot point.

 

[ConcreteJungle]

There is a right gun for each fight.
There is also a right caliber for each fight.
If you're trying to battle someone at 100yds using a handgun, maybe you need to reassess the situation and consider getting to a rifle or getting out of dodge.
Caliber wars are as much fun as sticking a fork into a live wall socket. Nobody ever wins.