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So my C&R is useless paper now - yay . . .

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Highboy, Nov 5, 2014.

  1. Highboy

    Highboy Anacortes Member

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    Well, it was nice being able to have old mil-surps and such mailed to me - no FFL fees or B/G checks. Now good 'ol Washingtonians have rendered my Federally issued collectors license useless :confused:

    I am hoping that some legal actions will kick in and contest this. Any word? o_O
     
  2. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Im not a lawyer but the language talks about those required to have a federal firearms license. Your C&R is a federal firearms license so you may still have a chance.

    The language in this section is what they are using

    "Dealer" means a person engaged in the business of selling
    firearms at wholesale or retail who has, or is required to have, a
    federal firearms license under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a). A person who
    does not have, and is not required to have, a federal firearms license
    under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a), is not a dealer if that person makes only
    occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the
    enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or sells all or
    part of his or her personal collection of firearms."

    If I was in your shoes I'd contact a lawyer who specialized in firearm laws, and get clarification for the C&R FFL.

    If anything, its a good point for entering in a lawsuit or challenge to the law.
     
    206thsense, bnsaibum and Highboy like this.
  3. Highboy

    Highboy Anacortes Member

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    Good point, bolus.

    I need to take some time to research this . . .

    I actually haven't looked at the measure in any detail yet. Good times . . .o_O
     
  4. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    Which of course will cost him more money in legal fees that could have been used for other ventures. So the clueless, disfunctional hipsters in Seattle have negatively affected his finances while attempting to pursue his excersising his civil rights.

    Sounds like "infringment" to me!
     
  5. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I believe this is the final text.
    http://sos.wa.gov/_assets/elections/initiatives/FinalText_483.pdf

    You can tell the person / people writing it dont know what a C&R is or completely forgot about it since there is zero mention and its a very important question.

    the problem is they only refer to the FFL as someone fitting 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a). Which is in the ATF rules pertaining only to the FFL's that sell guns
    https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-96-2.pdf

    How does one get an official reply from the ATF? I think that would be the best way to go if one did not want to start with a lawyer. Call and ask your ATF office.
     
    206thsense and Highboy like this.
  6. Highboy

    Highboy Anacortes Member

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    Good info - thanks again, bolus

    I'll look into this tonight if I can get some spare time. This thing just opens up a huge can of worms on so many levels now - Damn!
     
  7. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I once was closely involved with the development and passage of a small bill in Oregon. Having a good deal of knowledge behind the topic of the bill I would have been considered an expert. But, a bunch of legislators who know very little on the topic came up with a very stupid law that made no sense of several levels and they did not take any advice from us experts. Then I watched state officials who had even less understanding implement the law in all the wrong ways.

    Then I realized that is how every law is done.

    So I have absolutely no doubt that no one writing this bill had even remote experience with being a gun owner (nor listened to one)
     
  8. Bazooka Joe

    Bazooka Joe Lower Yakima Valley Well-Known Member

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    Yes, a lawyer is probably a good idea. The problem is that the exemption is not for "people with an FFL" but for "dealers." So if you aren't "engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail" then the exemption may not apply. Actually, because much of the C&R language refers to "collectors" one could argue that a "collector" cannot be a "dealer."
     
  9. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Yep, that is what the lawyers are for. To try and sort out language in poorly written laws. Unless the ATF has any sort authority to say "you can still use your C&R." I have no idea about that.
     
  10. not nipsy

    not nipsy Olympia, WA Member

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    I'm on my phone so i can't look it up, but no, your C&R and mine won't pass for an ffl as far as 594 is concerned. The distinction is in the definition. C&R absolutely does not give you license to be in the business out buying and selling firearms. It's very clear in federal law. Guns in and out of your personal collection is ok, and that's it.
     
  11. Highboy

    Highboy Anacortes Member

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    Yes. Unfortunately it stems from ignorance, agendas and politics. Shame!
     
  12. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    If I was there my C&R FFL would be what I started my lawsuit with. If the feds say I can collect these C&R guns and have them shipped to the house and is an official FFL, then the state makes a law forgetting about me and makes it illegal, then Im sure that's enough for a lawyer to get started.
     
    Redcap and Bazooka Joe like this.
  13. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I was thinking the same thing. Just need someone with the means to do it to grab this as point #1 to take before the courts. Maybe the NRA or SAF could pick up on this. It's going to need to be someone with resources, influence and connections.
     
  14. ak56

    ak56 Carnation, Wa Active Member

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    Not totally useless, you can still go out of state and buy/sell/transfer without the fees and B/G checks.

    Unfortunately, the C&R license is under 18 U.S.C. Sec 923 (b), not (a), so it does not qualify you as a dealer under 594.


    I believe that 18 U.S.C. Sec 923 (the feds) also says that you have to also follow state laws.

    This whole thing s*cks big-time.
     
  15. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    this is all I can find with respect to state laws on the C&R FFL

    "Yes. It is unlawful for any licensed collector to sell or deliver any firearm or ammunition to any person if the person’s purchase or possession would be in violation of any State law or local published ordinance applicable at the place of sale or delivery."

    Doesnt really say anything about collecting

    Are there any other states where the C&R FFL is useless? this has to have happened before.
     
  16. ak56

    ak56 Carnation, Wa Active Member

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    Well, Oregon (sort of). Oregon law requires background checks for C&R at gun shows.
     
  17. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I did not know that. Do you have more information on that? I'd assume a dealer at a gun show just needed a copy of your FFL.

    (not that I'd buy C&R guns at gun shows, they are all way too expensive)
     
  18. ak56

    ak56 Carnation, Wa Active Member

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  19. Gaucho Gringo

    Gaucho Gringo Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    I think it is up to individual dealer, but then again I may be wrong . I have run into several (not at a gun show)that won't accept my C&R on a C&R gun. I just walk away.
     
  20. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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