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Well, it was nice being able to have old mil-surps and such mailed to me - no FFL fees or B/G checks. Now good 'ol Washingtonians have rendered my Federally issued collectors license useless :confused:

I am hoping that some legal actions will kick in and contest this. Any word? o_O
 
Im not a lawyer but the language talks about those required to have a federal firearms license. Your C&R is a federal firearms license so you may still have a chance.

The language in this section is what they are using

"Dealer" means a person engaged in the business of selling
firearms at wholesale or retail who has, or is required to have, a
federal firearms license under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a). A person who
does not have, and is not required to have, a federal firearms license
under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a), is not a dealer if that person makes only
occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the
enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or sells all or
part of his or her personal collection of firearms."

If I was in your shoes I'd contact a lawyer who specialized in firearm laws, and get clarification for the C&R FFL.

If anything, its a good point for entering in a lawsuit or challenge to the law.
 
Good point, bolus.

I need to take some time to research this . . .

I actually haven't looked at the measure in any detail yet. Good times . . .o_O
 
Which of course will cost him more money in legal fees that could have been used for other ventures. So the clueless, disfunctional hipsters in Seattle have negatively affected his finances while attempting to pursue his excersising his civil rights.

Sounds like "infringment" to me!
 
I believe this is the final text.
http://sos.wa.gov/_assets/elections/initiatives/FinalText_483.pdf

You can tell the person / people writing it dont know what a C&R is or completely forgot about it since there is zero mention and its a very important question.

the problem is they only refer to the FFL as someone fitting 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a). Which is in the ATF rules pertaining only to the FFL's that sell guns
https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-96-2.pdf

How does one get an official reply from the ATF? I think that would be the best way to go if one did not want to start with a lawyer. Call and ask your ATF office.
 
Good info - thanks again, bolus

I'll look into this tonight if I can get some spare time. This thing just opens up a huge can of worms on so many levels now - Damn!
 
I once was closely involved with the development and passage of a small bill in Oregon. Having a good deal of knowledge behind the topic of the bill I would have been considered an expert. But, a bunch of legislators who know very little on the topic came up with a very stupid law that made no sense of several levels and they did not take any advice from us experts. Then I watched state officials who had even less understanding implement the law in all the wrong ways.

Then I realized that is how every law is done.

So I have absolutely no doubt that no one writing this bill had even remote experience with being a gun owner (nor listened to one)
 
Im not a lawyer but the language talks about those required to have a federal firearms license. Your C&R is a federal firearms license so you may still have a chance.

The language in this section is what they are using

"Dealer" means a person engaged in the business of selling
firearms at wholesale or retail who has, or is required to have, a
federal firearms license under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a). A person who
does not have, and is not required to have, a federal firearms license
under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a), is not a dealer if that person makes only
occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the
enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or sells all or
part of his or her personal collection of firearms."

If I was in your shoes I'd contact a lawyer who specialized in firearm laws, and get clarification for the C&R FFL.

If anything, its a good point for entering in a lawsuit or challenge to the law.

Yes, a lawyer is probably a good idea. The problem is that the exemption is not for "people with an FFL" but for "dealers." So if you aren't "engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail" then the exemption may not apply. Actually, because much of the C&R language refers to "collectors" one could argue that a "collector" cannot be a "dealer."
 
Yes, a lawyer is probably a good idea. The problem is that the exemption is not for "people with an FFL" but for "dealers." So if you aren't "engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail" then the exemption may not apply. Actually, because much of the C&R language refers to "collectors" one could argue that a "collector" cannot be a "dealer."

Yep, that is what the lawyers are for. To try and sort out language in poorly written laws. Unless the ATF has any sort authority to say "you can still use your C&R." I have no idea about that.
 
I'm on my phone so i can't look it up, but no, your C&R and mine won't pass for an ffl as far as 594 is concerned. The distinction is in the definition. C&R absolutely does not give you license to be in the business out buying and selling firearms. It's very clear in federal law. Guns in and out of your personal collection is ok, and that's it.
 
If I was there my C&R FFL would be what I started my lawsuit with. If the feds say I can collect these C&R guns and have them shipped to the house and is an official FFL, then the state makes a law forgetting about me and makes it illegal, then Im sure that's enough for a lawyer to get started.
 
If I was there my C&R FFL would be what I started my lawsuit with. If the feds say I can collect these C&R guns and have them shipped to the house and is an official FFL, then the state makes a law forgetting about me and makes it illegal, then Im sure that's enough for a lawyer to get started.

I was thinking the same thing. Just need someone with the means to do it to grab this as point #1 to take before the courts. Maybe the NRA or SAF could pick up on this. It's going to need to be someone with resources, influence and connections.
 
Well, it was nice being able to have old mil-surps and such mailed to me - no FFL fees or B/G checks. Now good 'ol Washingtonians have rendered my Federally issued collectors license useless :confused:

I am hoping that some legal actions will kick in and contest this. Any word? o_O

Not totally useless, you can still go out of state and buy/sell/transfer without the fees and B/G checks.

Im not a lawyer but the language talks about those required to have a federal firearms license. Your C&R is a federal firearms license so you may still have a chance.

The language in this section is what they are using

"Dealer" means a person engaged in the business of selling
firearms at wholesale or retail who has, or is required to have, a
federal firearms license under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a). A person who
does not have, and is not required to have, a federal firearms license
under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 923(a), is not a dealer if that person makes only
occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the
enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or sells all or
part of his or her personal collection of firearms."

If I was in your shoes I'd contact a lawyer who specialized in firearm laws, and get clarification for the C&R FFL.

If anything, its a good point for entering in a lawsuit or challenge to the law.
Unfortunately, the C&R license is under 18 U.S.C. Sec 923 (b), not (a), so it does not qualify you as a dealer under 594.


If I was there my C&R FFL would be what I started my lawsuit with. If the feds say I can collect these C&R guns and have them shipped to the house and is an official FFL, then the state makes a law forgetting about me and makes it illegal, then Im sure that's enough for a lawyer to get started.

I believe that 18 U.S.C. Sec 923 (the feds) also says that you have to also follow state laws.

This whole thing s*cks big-time.
 
I believe that 18 U.S.C. Sec 923 (the feds) also says that you have to also follow state laws.

This whole thing s*cks big-time.

this is all I can find with respect to state laws on the C&R FFL

"Yes. It is unlawful for any licensed collector to sell or deliver any firearm or ammunition to any person if the person's purchase or possession would be in violation of any State law or local published ordinance applicable at the place of sale or delivery."

Doesnt really say anything about collecting

Are there any other states where the C&R FFL is useless? this has to have happened before.
 
this is all I can find with respect to state laws on the C&R FFL

"Yes. It is unlawful for any licensed collector to sell or deliver any firearm or ammunition to any person if the person's purchase or possession would be in violation of any State law or local published ordinance applicable at the place of sale or delivery."

Doesnt really say anything about collecting

Are there any other states where the C&R FFL is useless? this has to have happened before.

Well, Oregon (sort of). Oregon law requires background checks for C&R at gun shows.
 

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