So it's the end of the world, you have guns, how many have been actually shooting?

[theficklefinger]

This is an interesting thought to ponder. .

I bring this up because I've come to see many of my tough guy hunter pro gun bad *** buddies as out of shape dads that never train, never shoot, couldn't go 100 yrds with having a heart attack, toddlers in tow, no real skill sets other then driving a vehicle and shooting a deer from the side of the road. I see these people as liabilities now. Being in a group of these people would slow me down and quite frankly just draw fire.

 

[theficklefinger]

I've had to ponder lately that when it comes down to it, how many people would be a liability, how many you would I have to carry, who would create more problems then solutions under dire circumstances.

 

[Mark W.]

Feel free to leave the herd behind we won't miss you.

 

[308]

Would it be fair to say that any serious scenario means we have to stand next to people that haven't put more then a box of ammo through their guns every year?

I take it you are referring the the Eugene Police Department?

 

[coop44]

Never has been. The correct translation is the end of the AGE.

A free humanity will end, but the world will be around for billions of more years. Hopefully house cats will take over.

God I hope not, that lazy cat does nothing. I'm rooting for the weinerdogs.

seriously, end of the world? again? adapt and overcome.

 

[speeddemon94]

I bring this up because I've come to see many of my tough guy hunter pro gun bad *** buddies as out of shape dads that never train, never shoot, couldn't go 100 yrds with having a heart attack, toddlers in tow, no real skill sets other then driving a vehicle and shooting a deer from the side of the road. I see these people as liabilities now. Being in a group of these people would slow me down and quite frankly just draw fire.

So here's a bit of my thought process behind what I said.

I am, as most know, retired Army. I am broken, and deal with pain regularly, but hey...That's like being active duty, and I have ample training at stuffing aside that pain and carrying on. Even as broken and out of shape as I am, I can go...and go, and go, and go some more. It's far more mental than it is physical, but there are those who have never had any physical training at all, and those wouldn't last. That being said, here's how I see this going down...

TEOTWAWKI: Some events lead to this, riots, mayhem, economic collapse, who knows. There will be an immediate dying period. The government would not be a major concern for most of us at this point, if there is any government left anyhow. The ones I will be worried about are the ones who have no training, or survival mentality...They will become roving bands of animals, who will quickly be killed off or starved out, but they will do quite a bit of damage in the first year. And I think that a year would be about what it would take for things to die down...

Now we have to worry about the marauder types...and possibly military or government of some sort. This is when the co-op groups will become important. These groups, would have to made up by a variety of people, of course like mindedness is paramount, but you cant just have a bunch of commandos running around. There will be great benefit from having people of varying disciplines, growing, medical, intel, and yeah, even kids...They train very well, and are able to be molded, thus propagating your group.

Of course we are talking way down the road, and if it were me, I would be building my group out of guys like me. Making sure that we and our families make it through to calmer times.

I do know what you are saying about people being a liability, though.

 

[MountainBear]

It's been at least seven hours since I've shot. I've already got the shakes...

 

[osterr1999]

I look at it like this. If things are bad, I would like to have as many people on my side with a gun in their hand as I can. Maybe they are not expert marksmen, but even desperate people would think twice about charging a large group of armed people vs one person who shoots extremely well.

 

[speeddemon94]

And if you've got a bunch of people who are mediocre shooters, they make good cover shooters and allow for your better trained guys to shoot and move. Makes those with training, more fully used to their potential. It works for our armed forces, hell even in spec ops groups there are guys who are stronger shooters than others.

 

[Brutus57]

I think the biggest concern should be how many medics available vs gunners, that's worth getting some folks trained for. I also agree organization sooner rather than later would be helpful. I've never been in combat. I am an intel puke by my previous military experience. I did 16 weeks under Marine drill instructors so I have a handle on discipline, not quitting when it would be the easy thing to do and team work. I am no sniper but I still have decent eyesight and I'll either adapt or die. I'll join a range when funds around since its hard to find free, safe shooting areas. Am I skirmisher, heck no. Can I throw lead down range, you betchum! Are we going to defend or be on the offensive? There are no simple answers and many scenarios. Also, who is in charge? I've had great skippers and had guys/gals who were unsafe at any speed. I think we can all agree we should spend whatever time we have left to "Prepare thyself, grasshopper!"

Brutus Out

 

[Mark W.]

The point about medics is a very good one. In our family group we have someone who has had many many many first aid and disaster aid type training as well as a real bonified US NAVY Corpsman with both field and hospital training (8 years active). Who currently works as a PA and Nurse.

 

[speeddemon94]

Yup, and trauma trained people will be the most important. CLS training, wilderness medicine, very important stuff. And stuff that needs to passed along with the other training. If you know how to inflict damage, then you should be trained in how to repair that damage as well.

 

[speeddemon94]

I've been taught that for a long time...Martial arts had a strong portion dedicated to chiropractic and dealing with injuries we caused to our friends while sparring.

I kept that thought process when I joined the military. And hospital personnel aren't equipped to deal with a lot of this stuff, short of ER docs and nurses. If someone has been shot, they have to be assessed, quickly treated, or made comfortable...Very little can be done while in active combat. Stop the bleeding and CM, you can't help them anymore and especially if you get killed while trying.

 

[theficklefinger]

25% of the deaths in Vietnam were friendly fire.

 

[MountainBear]

25% of the deaths in Vietnam were friendly fire.

Do you have a reliable source to cite for that little tidbit?

 

[speeddemon94]

Total US Dead and wounded in Vietnam: 211,454
Estimated friendly fire incidents: 8,000

8000/211454 = .0378 Converted to a % that is 3.78%


Which is no where near 25%

 

[speeddemon94]

Minutes do mean everything. It's what you can do in those minutes to keep you and your buddy alive to make it through to the next skirmish.

 

[theficklefinger]

The numbers in Vietnam are correct, they were about about halved in Gulf war one. You guys have an interenet connection, look it up. At issue is walking up around with guys who's guns aren't tested, carried by peeps that can't shoot, making noise, and generall non-capable.

Cannon fodder.

 

[speeddemon94]

The numbers in Vietnam are correct, they were about about halved in Gulf war one. You guys have an internet connection, look it up.

I did look it up. 3% is the number, not 25%

Plus I'm a combat vet, been there, done that...Guys don't shoot their buddies much...but accidents do happen.

Total US Dead and wounded in Vietnam: 211,454
Estimated friendly fire incidents: 8,000

8000/211454 = .0378 Converted to a % that is 3.78%


Which is no where near 25%

 

[theficklefinger]

Here you go Speed.

Friendly Fire Notebook

If you want to go by Wiki...the numbers start at 8k in Vietnam. 55k dead divided by 8k = 14%

Friendly fire isn't just some idiot shooting you in the back or the moron getting the artillery estimates wrong, but also bad planning...such as D Day.. troops drowning because they got the tide table wrong.

It's called military incompetence, where the other guy get's you killed, becayse he's an idiot.

You have the links, educated yourself. Lets typing, more reading.