Sig loses to Glock with Swiss Army

[deen_ad]

I mean "ouch" what is next, the US military adopting a Kalashnikov?

Only if someone in the US starts making them, but then you'd have a $2000 copy of a great $300 product! Maybe an AK shooting 5.56 or .308?

Eight U.S. Presidents have been NRA members. They are: Ulysses S. Grant,
Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Dwight D. Eisenhower,
John F. Kennedy, Richard M. Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George Bush

80 MILLION gun owners didn't shoot anyone today, a few criminals did!

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The "Feedback Score" is low by 4, not everyone posts it I guess.

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector member
South West Washington Arms Collector member

 

[billt]

You have to remember that Glock not only makes a great product, they are also very difficult to compete with. How long does it take to injection mold a Glock frame? How long does it take to machine one complete out of steel or Aluminum by other manufacturers?

It isn't so much that Glock "gives them away" as it is they can manufacture them at very low cost and still maintain a very high quality product. In the Polymer gun market Glock is the one everyone is always chasing, and never catching. A lot of people hate their success because they are an Austrian company. They hate the Kalashnikov for much the same reason. Had either been designed and produced here, they'd be the greatest thing since Monday Night Football and 3 men in the booth. Bill T.

 

[Chipperxd]

I understand that. What I was getting at is that the low cost of the gun def wins points. Like I've said, I love Glocks and I'm glad they are able to win these contracts. but if Sig or HK offered their guns at the price wouldn't you take the Sig or HK? Do Sigs and HKs fail miserably at these tests?

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I understand that. What I was getting at is that the low cost of the gun def wins points. Like I've said, I love Glocks and I'm glad they are able to win these contracts. but if Sig or HK offered their guns at the price wouldn't you take the Sig or HK? Do Sigs and HKs fail miserably at these tests?

It was actually a SIG that won two thirds of the trials I have participated in for local agencies.

 

[bshnt2015]

thanks for sharing

 

[billt]

I understand that. What I was getting at is that the low cost of the gun def wins points. Like I've said, I love Glocks and I'm glad they are able to win these contracts. but if Sig or HK offered their guns at the price wouldn't you take the Sig or HK? Do Sigs and HKs fail miserably at these tests?

They couldn't and produce the same quality and type of weapon. H&K could with their Polymer guns, but not Sig. There is no doubt in my mind Glock produces the best Polymer gun period. Not just the best gun for the price. It is well designed with a minimum of parts, (something like 34 total), and functions impeccably. My H&K USP is a nice gun, but I would trust my life to any of my 6 Glocks first. The H&K is horribly overpriced for what it is, and magazines are hard to find, and expensive when you finally do.

Sig builds a nice weapon, but it's in a different class with a machined frame in either steel or Aluminum. Comparing a Sig Stainless Elite to a Glock is like comparing a Z-06 Corvette to a Ford F-150. A jewel to a workhorse. Cost effects contracts, no doubt. But small nations like Switzerland have a small sized military that can't be compared to a country like the United States. Police departments are the same way. A small county sheriff's office can't be compared to outfitting the LAPD. With the larger contracts Glock will have an advantage, but most choose Glock for it's performance and ability to service with a large network. Lower cost is a plus with some of the larger military's and departments. Bill T.

 

[Chipperxd]

isn't that what I was getting at? Glocks get browny points for being so cheap to produce.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

They couldn't and produce the same quality and type of weapon. H&K could with their Polymer guns, but not Sig. There is no doubt in my mind Glock produces the best Polymer gun period. Not just the best gun for the price. It is well designed with a minimum of parts, (something like 34 total), and functions impeccably. My H&K USP is a nice gun, but I would trust my life to any of my 6 Glocks first. The H&K is horribly overpriced for what it is, and magazines are hard to find, and expensive when you finally do.

Sig builds a nice weapon, but it's in a different class with a machined frame in either steel or Aluminum. Comparing a Sig Stainless Elite to a Glock is like comparing a Z-06 Corvette to a Ford F-150. A jewel to a workhorse. Cost effects contracts, no doubt. But small nations like Switzerland have a small sized military that can't be compared to a country like the United States. Police departments are the same way. A small county sheriff's office can't be compared to outfitting the LAPD. With the larger contracts Glock will have an advantage, but most choose Glock for it's performance and ability to service with a large network. Lower cost is a plus with some of the larger military's and departments. Bill T.

I could not agree with that statement any less than I do. Anytime someone says they think Glock builds the best gun the first thing I think is "You need to get experience with more guns."

 

[billt]

I could not agree with that statement any less than I do. Anytime someone says they think Glock builds the best gun the first thing I think is "You need to get experience with more guns."

Is that a fact? Tell me, just how many of the damn things do I have to buy, own, and shoot??? Bill T.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Is that a fact? Tell me, just how many of the damn things do I have to buy, own, and shoot??? Bill T.

Not exactly a wide variety of polymer there to compare it to, but let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say exposure to various makers is not the issue. In that case, I would have to just call your judgment/taste into question. Glock's strength is making a gun that is so loose it can run dirty but not making it so loose that it does not function reliably. Then the cherry on top is to produce said gun so cheaply that they can practically give it away to government agencies. Then wrap it all up in a pretty PR/advertising bow (which takes advantage of those government contracts). That is about it. That is the whole secret to there success.

They are not especially well made, they are not particularly attractive, they are not particularly durable (look at 2 yr old police trade in Glocks compared to 20 year old police trade in Smiths), and they do not function any better than most major brands (in fact I have never seen them actually win a trial). They just do enough in every category to succeed and then beat every one else in price. Don't go drinking too much of the kool-aid and trying to tell the story any different than it really is.

 

[billt]

They are not especially well made, they are not particularly attractive, they are not particularly durable.

Give me a break. You've proven without a doubt with that statement you clearly don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. I'm not talking "Kool-Aid", but rather common sense! Bill T.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Give me a break. You've proven without a doubt with that statement you clearly don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. I'm not talking "Kool-Aid", but rather common sense! Bill T.

You are completely out of your element if you are going to start making the claim that Glocks are as durable as some older guns that are decades old and still look like new. Glock is a polymer gun, Melonite does wear, and the metal underneath does rust...not to mention kabooms, frame warping, the fact they can't handle lead bullets, unsupported chambers, etc. I have seen some VERY rough police trades in from Glock. In fact Glock destroys a lot of the guns that get returned via their trade in program. Common sense has to be based on relevant, practical, available information. What you are stating is opinion. You think Glock will hold up as well as other guns, but you have no real world evidence since they only started making them less than thirty years ago and they only really became popular in the USA around twenty odd years ago. You are confusing popular and affordable with being the best. By your logic the Ford Escort was one of the best cars ever made.

 

[Browning55]

That one did surprise me. Will be interesting to see what other countries do and why.

 

[billt]

I have seen some VERY rough police trades in from Glock. In fact Glock destroys a lot of the guns that get returned via their trade in program.

You base durability on cosmetic issues coming from police trades? That's it? Police guns get carried a lot, and fired little. Glock has range rental guns that have had well over one million rounds fired through them. The indoor range near me cycles a new one into the mix every 100,000 rounds or so. And those are 100,000 reliable, trouble free rounds. Glocks have received more torture testing than any other weapon on the surface of this Earth, and have outclassed weapons costing many times more.

You criticize a Glock for being "ugly". It was never designed to be "pretty". It is a self defense weapon, not a Grade VI Citori, or a Weatherby Mark V De Luxe. Tenifer, (not Melonite), is one of the most durable firearm finishes on the market. It has survived salt water immersion tests, and come out better than any other mass applied finish in the firearms business. Do you honestly think a blued Smith & Wesson Police Positive would fair better?

The Glock pistol has an unsupported chamber, and it does not fire lead bullets BY DESIGN. The barrel is throated to give reliable feeding with any type of open nosed defense ammunition on the market. It has Polygonal rifling to achieve the highest possible velocity with the least amount of pressure while shooting this ammunition. Most all Glock "kabooms" can be contributed to shooting either lead bullets, reloads, or all of the above. Both of which are highlighted in the owners manual NOT TO BE FIRED in a Glock pistol. If you run regular unleaded in a Ferrari and detonate the engine, is this the manufacturers fault? Polygonal rifling does not lend itself to shooting lead bullets. Why would anyone carry a self defense weapon loaded with lead ammunition anyway? I don't even know anyone who sells factory loaded, lead self defense ammunition. The Glock is a service weapon, and a self defense tool. It is not a target pistol, and never was designed as such.

You think because you pay more for a weapon that it's higher cost guarantees you a more sound purchase. Not hardly. I purchased an H&K USP 9. It is not half the weapon my Glocks are. The gun is horrendously over priced. The magazine release is poorly designed, and can easily pinch your fingers, and or break. The magazines are poorly constructed compared to a Glock, and much like the weapon itself, are overpriced costing over twice what a Glock drop free, metal lined magazine costs. The weapon itself has far more parts, is not as reliable, and is prone to parts based failure far more than any Glock could hope to be on it's worst day. Please don't tell me different because I own and shoot both. I've put tens of thousands of rounds through my half dozen Glocks, and have yet to experience a single FTF or FTE in any of them. I wish I could say that about my H&K that I spent almost twice as much on, and found it to not be half the gun.

You started off your anti Glock rant by stating that anyone who favors the platform is a "fan boy" who, "drinks the Kool-Aid". All you are displaying is typical Internet ignorance, nothing more. You regurgitate what you read on gun forums without actually owning and shooting said weapons. I base my opinions on actual results I have obtained, firing tens of thousands of rounds through literally dozens of weapons that I actually personally purchased, own, and shoot on a regular basis. Not on keyboard rants from armchair Internet commandos, preaching what they don't know from the sanctimonious comfort of their mothers basement. Bill T.

 

[FarmerTed1971]

Well said. /closed

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I love Glocks and all but is there any truth in that Glock pretty much gives them away to military/PDs at very low costs to win these contracts?

Some time ago on a glock forum I read they are like $70-$100 to produce and they sell them for around $250 to large military/LE contracts. It would be hard to compete with that low of a price.

 

[billt]

Some time ago on a glock forum I read they are like $70-$100 to produce and they sell them for around $250 to large military/LE contracts. It would be hard to compete with that low of a price.

Those are pretty much the same exact figures I've come up with in my research. Now my question is how does that in itself make them a "bad" pistol? I'm not saying that you have said that, but several others do in that regard.

It goes like this..... Glock is able to produce their pistols very inexpensively. Glock sells their pistols for a really big profit. Glock practically "gives" their guns to law enforcement. Glock doesn't even bother to repair or recondition their pistols. They simply dispose of them for new ones......... OK, let's just say all of that is true. If you were teaching business to a large, upscale college, wouldn't that be your business model? Gaston Glock doesn't fly in a Bombardier, BD700 Global Express (GLEX) $45 million dollar private jet because he is losing money. My question is simply this. How does any of this represent a weapon you would not want to buy??? Bill T.

 

[DERGLOCKINMEISTER]

A lot of Sig fans are butt hurt that the uber weapon was found wanting . Price is only one factor in any organization choosing a firearm for it's forces.
If you want a safe queen there are a lot of choices to make , but it's hard to argue with the quality , dependability , and practicality of the Glock .

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Some time ago on a glock forum I read they are like $70-$100 to produce and they sell them for around $250 to large military/LE contracts. It would be hard to compete with that low of a price.

Those numbers jive with my experience. So in the end, the Glock is by no means the best gun (as so many brainwashed Glock-o-philes believe). They are just "the best gun for the money." Often they end up being the only option for some forces because they could not afford enough of the second cheapest gun to cover their needs.

 

[motoman98]

Here's a question from the 'gallery' to this posting. What model SIG did the Swiss test? Wassit still the P220 they already had for years?
Seems since they manufacture both metal and polymer "framed" handguns, it would be informative to know.