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SHTF Firearms
- Thread Starter viehmann7680
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Thanks! Again sorry for being a noob.
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I absolutely love the P40, a little known fact is that a lot of police officers carry them as off duty guns and back up guns, never did figure out why they discontinued it besides I heard a lot no nothing were not taking care of them and which caused a few warranty issue's, but everyone i know who has shot one and taken care of it never had a problem.
22 I bought Mossberg 702 Plinkster <broken link removed> at Walmart for $125.00 3 years ago it is a good gun for the money no problem there either, it comes with a 10 round mag and after great demand they offer a high capacity <broken link removed>
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Before I left Ace I milled around with the mossy 702. The only thing that killed the sale was that there are no side folding stocks for the 702. I wanted the 22 as a survival B.O.B. gun and really the only two rifles that fit the bill, for me, were the 10/22 and the ar7.
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If the beretta m9 is a pile of bubblegum that why is it standard military issue?
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question>
i dont mind the m9 new but i wouldnt want one issued to me used.
answer>
i dont mind the m9 new but i wouldnt want one issued to me used.
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I think where you live will have a lot to do with your equipment. Urban environments and CQ combat will require different set-ups than the countryside does.
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Noob here everyone. My go to SHTF firearms are my little STAR 9mm auto pistol and my practically bomb-proof remington pump .22 for hunting of small critters and zombie head-shots. It has a crazy accurate 4x leupold scope and you would have to have brain damage to miss a target with that rifle. My thinking in these 2 guns for a SHTF scenario is that the guns themselves and the ammo is light, and more likely to be plentiful. If I gotta pack up and move in a hurry I don't want to worry about a freakin' 50 lb sack to carry some heavy ammo. I think mobility and the ability to leave in a hurry outweigh the benefits of more powerful weapons. Just my 2 cents.
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Yep. Never seen a bad privately owned Model 92. Uncle Sam's neglect program did nothing for the pistol's reputation in the armed forces, but he keeps buying them anyway. Go figure.
Ben Stoeger, a competition shooter, even has examples that have fired in excess of 100k rounds each.
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Totally disagree! It is large and heavy for a 9MM, but it is my oldest hand gun with the most rounds fired and stays cleaner and shows less wear than any others. It has NEVER malfunctioned. I own one and I use them in the military. Is it an ideal service pistol? No. But a piece of "bubblegum", it is not. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.
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I have to agree with 9MilMan on this one. I used an M92FS a LOT in the Army as an MP. The gun is big and heavy, the safety lever is difficult and I hate SA/DA guns. Nevertheless I never had an M92FS fail on me nor have I seen one fail...and I've fired a LOT of bullets and have worked on a LOT of guns. Most of the firearms in the service that failed were the M249 SAWs (the firing pins tend to shatter to pieces, the barrels melt, the sear files down and will make it fire when on SAFE- stuff like that). The biggest issue with the Beretta was the finish. I never saw a gun that had all the bluing still on it and they rusted easily. Nevertheless they worked and worked well.
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I have never bought a firearm with SHTF in mind when I did. though looking at the gun rack I have no doubt that I have anything I need for any SHTF that might come up from 2 yards to 1000 yards. And anything under 300 yards would be a very scarry place to be if I thought my life or my familys life was in danger.
Thanks to the OP for the great post. I am in the midst of compiling my own "ideal" "on the move" arsenal and have only two remaining items to acquire before I feel I am fully and adequately equipped. Though I think that in a SHTF scenario any gun is far better than no gun.
When I was thinking about what my arsenal needed to include, I broke down the categories similar to how the OP has.
-Battle rifle
-Hunting rifle (big game)
-Hunting rifle (the little things)
-Backup/close quarters defense
-When all else fails
My thinking led me to want to consolidate as I did not want to have to carry 10 guns with me everywhere I needed to trek and I fully anticipate that trekking will certainly be a common and expected task in a SHTF situation. So my revised "ideal arsenal" is broken down like this.
-Battle rifle/hunting rifle
-Back up/close quarters
-Back up for the back up
The battle rifle is the one of two items I lack and I ideally want one that can also be effective as a hunting weapon. I will probably go with an AR-15 or an AR-10 (I know it is heavy and parts are not as prevalent but that is slowly changing as the build becomes more popular). I am still torn between the 5.56mm and the .308 rounds. .308 will certainly take care of the dual purpose of hunting and man-stopping. I will carry either my Glock 22 or my S&W M&P40 for my backup. The second item I would like to get is a .22 rifle that can be made to fit in a b.o.b. or a .22 pistol. In my opinion, this is an ideal goal to achieve when you anticipate having to be on the move. (I also have a Ruger LCP that I can throw in a pack or pocket as it does not weight a whole lot)
If I can hole up, then I certainly have anything I might need including a plethora of black powder arms which are an excellent fallback like someone has already pointed out. I also have my 30.06, 30-30, and .22 rifles at the ready as well.
When I was thinking about what my arsenal needed to include, I broke down the categories similar to how the OP has.
-Battle rifle
-Hunting rifle (big game)
-Hunting rifle (the little things)
-Backup/close quarters defense
-When all else fails
My thinking led me to want to consolidate as I did not want to have to carry 10 guns with me everywhere I needed to trek and I fully anticipate that trekking will certainly be a common and expected task in a SHTF situation. So my revised "ideal arsenal" is broken down like this.
-Battle rifle/hunting rifle
-Back up/close quarters
-Back up for the back up
The battle rifle is the one of two items I lack and I ideally want one that can also be effective as a hunting weapon. I will probably go with an AR-15 or an AR-10 (I know it is heavy and parts are not as prevalent but that is slowly changing as the build becomes more popular). I am still torn between the 5.56mm and the .308 rounds. .308 will certainly take care of the dual purpose of hunting and man-stopping. I will carry either my Glock 22 or my S&W M&P40 for my backup. The second item I would like to get is a .22 rifle that can be made to fit in a b.o.b. or a .22 pistol. In my opinion, this is an ideal goal to achieve when you anticipate having to be on the move. (I also have a Ruger LCP that I can throw in a pack or pocket as it does not weight a whole lot)
If I can hole up, then I certainly have anything I might need including a plethora of black powder arms which are an excellent fallback like someone has already pointed out. I also have my 30.06, 30-30, and .22 rifles at the ready as well.
When my wife got diagnosed with cancer, we needed to move from our place in the country and go stay with friends in the big city for treatment and just plain day to day living without the strain of managing a rural homestead. I consider that a SHTF event for our family. Interesting that what I grabbed up was my snubbie and my G26, stored in a pelican case cabled inside my truck. The rifles etc all went into storage.
If you're a refugee, concealability and the ability to keep firearms under direct control become prime assets, IMO.
If you're a refugee, concealability and the ability to keep firearms under direct control become prime assets, IMO.
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To a point...CCW in TEOWAWKI has it's advantages, but being near other people or being a refugee has many disadvantages that should be avoided at all costs.
Agreed. I have no plans to seek out any sort of populace. Preparedness lends oneself to becoming a target due to a number of things. Keeping a low profile and staying away from people is a good plan in my opinion. Surround yourself with a very few good trusted like minded friends and have a good plan.
'No plan survives first contact.'
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If you read up on Ferfals blog he sees a pistol as the main weapon of a private citizen. Soldiers use rifles and this is their primary job to lug around a rifle. Private citizens are doing other jobs trying to survive and a rifle adds another piece of equipment to the other jobs you are doing.
Some good tidbits from Ferfal
A LOT has been written on survival weapons. Everyone that is into armed survival has his or her own idea of the ideal gun battery. Some more oriented to a hunting point of view, others only as self defense means and others consider a little of both, and look for general purpose weapons. Talking about guns, there is one special subject I want to rectify, and it's the point on what's the primary weapon for the survivalist, specially a urban survivalist that has to function in a society, yes, even after the SHTF.
The primary defensive weapon for the survivalist is his HANDGUN. It's the weapon that stays with him when he is doing his business around town of working on the field. The survivalist IS NOT a soldier, even though you are a soldier or you once were the meanest mother on the battlefield, your home town is not a battlefield and it won't be, even if the SHTF. A LOT of water has to go under the bridge until the situation gets to a point where you can calmly walk down the street with a rifle on your shoulder. People, if you are interested in real world SHTF situation and you want to prepare for the real deal, then understand that this isn't black or white. You wake up one day and listen on the radio that the economy collapsed and that the stock market closed indefinitely. What do you do? You still have to go to the office/work/whatever. Kiss the wife good bye and walk to the office with your AR across your back, or across your chest, Israeli style, ready to shoot? You won't get far. Someone will shoot you or throw you in jail, or in a mental institution.
What I'm trying to explain, is that it's ok to prepare for China invading your country, Germans and UN or Martians. That is the extreme, least likely worst case scenario.
There is an infinity spectrum of gray between the black and white. White being your average normal day and black being total TEOTWAWKI, lizard men invading the planet.
Rifles do have a place in the survivalist's arsenal, and a very important one. But you have to understand that 90% of the time, the handgun will be the weapon you have available when you need one. You can't compare to a trooper in Iraq that has his weapon with him at all times. I ask you how many soldiers do you know that keep wearing camouflage and toting their M4s around town when they return home?
What works for war does not work for the survivalist, especially the urban survivalist.
Even if you live in a retreat far from town, you have to work, don't you? Or do you have employees that take care of all your mundane tasks, leaving you all day to keep watch with your rifle ready? A soldier is part of a huge machine; HIS job is to carry that rifle, while others take care of other needs. A survivalist, one that is not part of a large survivalist group, has no one to cover for him.
When a new guy looks for advice on what to get for defense, some will recommend a rifle or shotgun as a first defensive weapon.
Let's say race riots start in this guy's city. He still has to go to work every day. What is he supposed to do? Shove his pump shotgun in his pocket? A handgun, even though less powerful, can be used for home defense AND go with you wherever you need to go. If the place floods, he can still hop into an evacuation boat without leaving his weapon behind. I'm sure no rescue team will pick you if you are carrying a long arm. They'll ask you to leave it behind for sure. What if your government, realizing that TSHTF and that they lost control of the events, bans all firearms indefinitely? Don't know about you, but if things are that bad, I'd like to be armed. You can hide a handgun under a jacket. You can't hide a long arm under your clothes.
I think it was Clint Smith who said that the handgun is only to be used to fight his way to his rifle. Man! That sounds macho. I'd love to see him walking into Walmart with his tactical M4, taking the subway, visiting the doctor or going to the bank. "Over here Mr. Smith, you can hang you M4 right next to my coat" I don't think so. Guys, unless you have your own shooting school, you do not get to carry your rifle to work.
OK, now that I got that out of my chest lets look at some options.
Handguns: Revolver or Pistol? Pistol ALL THE WAY! Yes, I saw the video of the guy that accurately emptied his S&W in ½ a second. I also saw the shooting range and the crowd behind him, watching the event. Can he shoot and reload that way if he is in his car, driving with one hand and shooting with the other, while a bunch of scum bags in another car are shooting at him? Hey, maybe he can. I know I can't. Can you?
Generally speaking, the revolver is more difficult to master than the pistol. The double action is hard and it affects speed and accuracy. It can be done, but I found that pistols are easier, as did many shooters. Also, even though they seem to be more simple, revolvers are not as rugged as service pistols, the mechanism that cycles the cylinder and cocks the hammer is both complicated and fragile compared to auto pistols.
Before anyone starts casting evil voodoo spells at me for insulting their prized S&W or Ruger: I own revolvers and like shooting them, I just don't think they are the best option for self defense, and I see that everyone I talk to in my country who is worried about security as I am also chooses pistols. Quality pistols resist sand, mud and dirt in general better than revolvers, where a small pebble locked in the mechanism may render the revolver inoperable.
I personally had a problem with a new stainless steel Taurus Tracker .357 magnum. After shooting it a couple of times I reloaded it and shot all 7 rounds as fast as I could and when I tried to empty it, I found that the empties were stuck because they expanded because of the heat. I had to wait until the gun cooled a little so I could empty the gun. Stuff like this can get you killed, even more in a 7 round handgun.
I once saw a man walk into a gun store wanting to trade his 357 magnum revolver for a 9mm high capacity pistol. He said he was driving when thugs from another car started shooting at him. He was chased for a few blocks. He said that he pulled his revolver and started shooting at them, and ran out of ammo real fast. He wanted more capacity and fast reloading. I could not agree with him more. Some will consider this "Spray and pray", thinking that all rounds should hit the target and if some don't then it means that you need more time at the range. Those same people will tell you that they intend to use bolt action rifles as defensive rifles, making each shot count, without ever missing their target, one shot one kill. I don't agree with this. One shot one kill is ok for snipers, but the survivalist should have other alternatives.
I don't see anything wrong with shooting four or five rounds at a chasing car. If those rounds make them think twice about their intentions, they are rounds well spent in my book, even if they don't kill the attacker. Suppressive fire is possible if you have a high capacity pistol. I wouldn't doubt on using such a tactic if it serves my purposes, or if it buys me time to get out of there. Also keep in mind that criminals are cowards and therefore attack in groups. The survivalist should be able to face more than just one attacker. Getting into a gunfight with two or three armed men while packing a 6 round revolver is rather hard to deal with. A high capacity pistol can load about 15 or 19 rounds, and that can certainly make a difference in a gunfight where you are outnumbered.
A forensic doctor that used to live in my neighborhood got killed last year. He was ambushed when he exited a restaurant by 5 or 6 men. Even though they did kill him he managed to kill 4 of them and severely injure another. He shot regularly and carried a Glock .40. I'm sure he was lucky but I also think that his choice of weapon was also important in the outcome. If anyone is wondering, people in my country that are serious about self defense carry Glocks. Those that don't have the money for a Glock carry Bersas, FN 9mm High Powers or 1911 surplus .45s. At first I wasn't sure about the Bersa, but once I tried them I saw that they are very decent guns.
The caliber choice calls for endless debate and it is not my intention here. Lets just say that 9mm , 40S&W and 45ACP are the obvious choices. 40S&W seem to be the most adequate, both in FMJ and HP, while 9mm lacks some stopping power and hollow points should be used if possible. Though the 9mm lacks power compared to the 40S&W, it is more popular world wide, a factor to consider seriously when choosing a handgun for SHTF. Besides, 9mm can also be used in a number of carbines and SMG, another important fact to be considered.
SMGs and carbines chambered for 40S&W and .45 ACP are also available, but they at not nearly as popular as those chambered for 9mm. Whatever you choose keep 500 or better yet 1000 rounds of quality ammo for your handgun at all times. 100 rounds won't last much if the crisis lasts long. Also consider that once the balloon goes up, governments tend to restrict guns and ammo.
Rifles
I previously stated that the urban survivalist will be using his handgun 90% of the time he needs to defend himself and family from attackers. I didn't pull this figure out of thin air; it is quite accurate based on what happens here on daily basis, even a little optimistic. Cold harsh reality has shown us that most attacks occur when entering or exiting your home, when you are more vulnerable.
Almost no one is stupid enough to try to enter a barred house with armed occupants. Believe me people; the gene pool will clean itself rather fast once the SHTF. So, is a rifle necessary? Of course it is! There is still that 10%, and that 10% can still ruin your day. And this percentage sky rockets if you intend to use that same rifle for putting meat on the table. If you have to settle with just one rifle, go for a semi auto. Ideally you should have a bolt action one and a semi auto rifle. A bolt action and a semiautomatic 308 would make a nice combination.
Whatever you choose, try to keep it within military calibers and military weapons if possible.
It may seem that I have something against bolt rifles but I don't. I think they are fantastic weapons, but I think that semi autos are much better fighting weapons. The idea of "picking them out" 300 meters away with your bolt rifle, as they come in a row blowing whistles and firing warning rounds is laughable at best. Bolt rifles do have advantages over semi autos, accuracy not being the most important one. Bolt rifles such as Mausers last forever and are harder than rocks, and THAT'S important. They are simple, easy to repair tools that will serve you (within their limitations of course) longer than any other weapon. For example, the coil spring on my Mauser 1891 safety broke into 3 separate parts, after almost 100 years of faithful service. I dug into my tool box and found a spring left over from a kitchen shelve door. I cut it approximately to the length of the previous spring, replaced it and the rifle was fixed. There are not many weapons that allow this. And it is a very valuable attribute once the SHTF and spare parts are no longer available.
Stick to common calibers, 223, 7.62x39mm, or 7,62x51 (308). 223 vs. 308? I'm not going there. If you prefer 223 because it has less recoil, it's lighter, or you favor the AR rifle go ahead. If you think that 223 is more powerful than 7,62 sign up to Physics I.
Just remember what I said before, a survivalist is not a soldier serving in Iraq, and you don't have the entire USMF to back you up. You are on your own. You are not going to pin your attackers down with a questionably effective round and wait until someone hits them with artillery.
About ARs. I wouldn't trust my life to a rifle that has more versions than Rocky sequels. the way I see it, it means that the basic design was the problem and there is no solution. On AK all has been said. The most popular rifle on the planet, and popular not because of politics, but because it works. It also fires an intermediate power, effective round, available world wide. SKS are also good, but I'd rather have removable magazines. Again, don't use voodoo on me because I say I wouldn't trust my life to a AR. If you keep your weapon clean, know its limitations and feel comfortable with it, go for it please. A couple of rounds of 223 will kill anyone just as well.
If you want a rifle that can do a little bit of everything relatively well, do yourself a favor and get either a M1A or a FAL in 7,62 (308) with a carbine length barrel. Preferably with a red dot scope and some kind of light mount. Leave full length barrels to hunters and bench rest shooters. Do your homework on both guns and you'll see what I mean.
Choose 308 not because of the added range you can get out of it, but because of its power at all ranges, choose it because it turns cover into concealment. Think about all the possible cover material you can find in a city, like cars, trees, low walls and other structures. The 308 will go right through it, or destroy it after a few rounds. It's a proven cartridge through out the years.
Shotguns.
Shotguns are good general purpose guns. The main advantage I see is the devastating stopping power and the ability to use special ammo, like slugs and less than lethal ammo. I'm not so sure about the role as an "inside house" gun. The muzzle blast is great and quick follow up are not easy, especially when adrenalin is pumping through your system or, even worse, when someone is shooting back at you.
Pistol caliber carbines and SMG.
If possible , I'd choose a SMG reduced to semi auto (only if necessary, of course, full auto selector is better if possible ) or other kind of short, small, pistol caliber carbine. The combination of a 9mm handgun and a 9mm carbine or SMG reduced to semi auto or full auto class III has lots of advantages in my book and is a fine combination.
Some think that full auto is a waste of ammo. I don't think so, not if you know how to use your head, and use this feature wisely. If you can get a short barrel and collapsible stock, you'll also have a weapon that can be hidden under a heavy coat. A red dot scope would enhance accuracy a lot. The advantage of having the same ammo for long and small arm is not to be taken lightly. From the logistical, survivalist point of you, this is one big thumbs up! Think about cowboys and Americans that lived in the west, they also knew the value of using the same ammo for rifle and handgun. They had single action handguns and lever action handguns chambered for the same ammo, the modern survivalist can have the same ammo for his auto pistol and his sub-rifle as well.
Some think that a pistol caliber long arm is just one big clumsy pistol or a rifle sized gun that delivers pistol power and accuracy. This is BS. Anyone that ever fired a pistol caliber rifle or SMG knows that they are much more accurate, hitting torso targets at 100 yards is easy, and a little more if you have a red dot scope. Also, SMGs can manage hot ammo specially made for such guns, much more powerful than the one for handguns. Even if you use regular handgun ammo, the added barrel length adds a few extra feet per second making it more powerful. Just check the information on boy armor. Body armor that is rated to stop 9mm, for example, is not rated to stop the same 9mm ammo out of a SMG or carbine, because the added speed will make that same round penetrate the vest. Anyway, +P ammo is more than enough power out of a SMG or carbine, you don't have to go looking for special SMG ammunition.
If you can get full auto that's one nice feature to have, not worth it if you are on a tight budget, but if you can get it, it may come in handy someday. Full auto SMG are giving police in my country a lot of headaches. A criminal with little or no training will put 3 or 4 cops armed with pistols and shotguns on their toes, just because of the sheer volume of fire these high capacity 9mm deliver. There was this case of a bad guy standing in front of a patrol car full of cops on a red light stop, pulling a 9mm SMG out of his coat and emptying it on full auto. The cops didn't have a chance, he killed them all. The car looked like Swiss cheese with 40 9mm holes all over the vehicle.
Some facts:
1) Those that want to harm you/steal from you don't come with a pirate flag waving over their heads.
2) Neither do they start shooting at you 200 yards away.
3) They won't come riding loud bikes or dressed with their orange, convict just escaped from prison jump suits, so that you can identify them the better. Nor do they all wear chains around their necks and leather jackets. If I had a dollar for each time a person that got robbed told me "They looked like NORMAL people, dressed better than we are", honestly, I would have enough money for a nice gun. There are exceptions, but don't expect them to dress like in the movies.
4) A man with a wife and two or three kids can't set up a watch. I don't care if you are SEAL, SWAT or John Freaking Rambo, no 6th sense is going to tell you that there is a guy pointing a gun at your back when you are trying to fix the water pump that just broke, or carrying a big heavy bag of dried beans you bought that morning.
Some good tidbits from Ferfal
A LOT has been written on survival weapons. Everyone that is into armed survival has his or her own idea of the ideal gun battery. Some more oriented to a hunting point of view, others only as self defense means and others consider a little of both, and look for general purpose weapons. Talking about guns, there is one special subject I want to rectify, and it's the point on what's the primary weapon for the survivalist, specially a urban survivalist that has to function in a society, yes, even after the SHTF.
The primary defensive weapon for the survivalist is his HANDGUN. It's the weapon that stays with him when he is doing his business around town of working on the field. The survivalist IS NOT a soldier, even though you are a soldier or you once were the meanest mother on the battlefield, your home town is not a battlefield and it won't be, even if the SHTF. A LOT of water has to go under the bridge until the situation gets to a point where you can calmly walk down the street with a rifle on your shoulder. People, if you are interested in real world SHTF situation and you want to prepare for the real deal, then understand that this isn't black or white. You wake up one day and listen on the radio that the economy collapsed and that the stock market closed indefinitely. What do you do? You still have to go to the office/work/whatever. Kiss the wife good bye and walk to the office with your AR across your back, or across your chest, Israeli style, ready to shoot? You won't get far. Someone will shoot you or throw you in jail, or in a mental institution.
What I'm trying to explain, is that it's ok to prepare for China invading your country, Germans and UN or Martians. That is the extreme, least likely worst case scenario.
There is an infinity spectrum of gray between the black and white. White being your average normal day and black being total TEOTWAWKI, lizard men invading the planet.
Rifles do have a place in the survivalist's arsenal, and a very important one. But you have to understand that 90% of the time, the handgun will be the weapon you have available when you need one. You can't compare to a trooper in Iraq that has his weapon with him at all times. I ask you how many soldiers do you know that keep wearing camouflage and toting their M4s around town when they return home?
What works for war does not work for the survivalist, especially the urban survivalist.
Even if you live in a retreat far from town, you have to work, don't you? Or do you have employees that take care of all your mundane tasks, leaving you all day to keep watch with your rifle ready? A soldier is part of a huge machine; HIS job is to carry that rifle, while others take care of other needs. A survivalist, one that is not part of a large survivalist group, has no one to cover for him.
When a new guy looks for advice on what to get for defense, some will recommend a rifle or shotgun as a first defensive weapon.
Let's say race riots start in this guy's city. He still has to go to work every day. What is he supposed to do? Shove his pump shotgun in his pocket? A handgun, even though less powerful, can be used for home defense AND go with you wherever you need to go. If the place floods, he can still hop into an evacuation boat without leaving his weapon behind. I'm sure no rescue team will pick you if you are carrying a long arm. They'll ask you to leave it behind for sure. What if your government, realizing that TSHTF and that they lost control of the events, bans all firearms indefinitely? Don't know about you, but if things are that bad, I'd like to be armed. You can hide a handgun under a jacket. You can't hide a long arm under your clothes.
I think it was Clint Smith who said that the handgun is only to be used to fight his way to his rifle. Man! That sounds macho. I'd love to see him walking into Walmart with his tactical M4, taking the subway, visiting the doctor or going to the bank. "Over here Mr. Smith, you can hang you M4 right next to my coat" I don't think so. Guys, unless you have your own shooting school, you do not get to carry your rifle to work.
OK, now that I got that out of my chest lets look at some options.
Handguns: Revolver or Pistol? Pistol ALL THE WAY! Yes, I saw the video of the guy that accurately emptied his S&W in ½ a second. I also saw the shooting range and the crowd behind him, watching the event. Can he shoot and reload that way if he is in his car, driving with one hand and shooting with the other, while a bunch of scum bags in another car are shooting at him? Hey, maybe he can. I know I can't. Can you?
Generally speaking, the revolver is more difficult to master than the pistol. The double action is hard and it affects speed and accuracy. It can be done, but I found that pistols are easier, as did many shooters. Also, even though they seem to be more simple, revolvers are not as rugged as service pistols, the mechanism that cycles the cylinder and cocks the hammer is both complicated and fragile compared to auto pistols.
Before anyone starts casting evil voodoo spells at me for insulting their prized S&W or Ruger: I own revolvers and like shooting them, I just don't think they are the best option for self defense, and I see that everyone I talk to in my country who is worried about security as I am also chooses pistols. Quality pistols resist sand, mud and dirt in general better than revolvers, where a small pebble locked in the mechanism may render the revolver inoperable.
I personally had a problem with a new stainless steel Taurus Tracker .357 magnum. After shooting it a couple of times I reloaded it and shot all 7 rounds as fast as I could and when I tried to empty it, I found that the empties were stuck because they expanded because of the heat. I had to wait until the gun cooled a little so I could empty the gun. Stuff like this can get you killed, even more in a 7 round handgun.
I once saw a man walk into a gun store wanting to trade his 357 magnum revolver for a 9mm high capacity pistol. He said he was driving when thugs from another car started shooting at him. He was chased for a few blocks. He said that he pulled his revolver and started shooting at them, and ran out of ammo real fast. He wanted more capacity and fast reloading. I could not agree with him more. Some will consider this "Spray and pray", thinking that all rounds should hit the target and if some don't then it means that you need more time at the range. Those same people will tell you that they intend to use bolt action rifles as defensive rifles, making each shot count, without ever missing their target, one shot one kill. I don't agree with this. One shot one kill is ok for snipers, but the survivalist should have other alternatives.
I don't see anything wrong with shooting four or five rounds at a chasing car. If those rounds make them think twice about their intentions, they are rounds well spent in my book, even if they don't kill the attacker. Suppressive fire is possible if you have a high capacity pistol. I wouldn't doubt on using such a tactic if it serves my purposes, or if it buys me time to get out of there. Also keep in mind that criminals are cowards and therefore attack in groups. The survivalist should be able to face more than just one attacker. Getting into a gunfight with two or three armed men while packing a 6 round revolver is rather hard to deal with. A high capacity pistol can load about 15 or 19 rounds, and that can certainly make a difference in a gunfight where you are outnumbered.
A forensic doctor that used to live in my neighborhood got killed last year. He was ambushed when he exited a restaurant by 5 or 6 men. Even though they did kill him he managed to kill 4 of them and severely injure another. He shot regularly and carried a Glock .40. I'm sure he was lucky but I also think that his choice of weapon was also important in the outcome. If anyone is wondering, people in my country that are serious about self defense carry Glocks. Those that don't have the money for a Glock carry Bersas, FN 9mm High Powers or 1911 surplus .45s. At first I wasn't sure about the Bersa, but once I tried them I saw that they are very decent guns.
The caliber choice calls for endless debate and it is not my intention here. Lets just say that 9mm , 40S&W and 45ACP are the obvious choices. 40S&W seem to be the most adequate, both in FMJ and HP, while 9mm lacks some stopping power and hollow points should be used if possible. Though the 9mm lacks power compared to the 40S&W, it is more popular world wide, a factor to consider seriously when choosing a handgun for SHTF. Besides, 9mm can also be used in a number of carbines and SMG, another important fact to be considered.
SMGs and carbines chambered for 40S&W and .45 ACP are also available, but they at not nearly as popular as those chambered for 9mm. Whatever you choose keep 500 or better yet 1000 rounds of quality ammo for your handgun at all times. 100 rounds won't last much if the crisis lasts long. Also consider that once the balloon goes up, governments tend to restrict guns and ammo.
Rifles
I previously stated that the urban survivalist will be using his handgun 90% of the time he needs to defend himself and family from attackers. I didn't pull this figure out of thin air; it is quite accurate based on what happens here on daily basis, even a little optimistic. Cold harsh reality has shown us that most attacks occur when entering or exiting your home, when you are more vulnerable.
Almost no one is stupid enough to try to enter a barred house with armed occupants. Believe me people; the gene pool will clean itself rather fast once the SHTF. So, is a rifle necessary? Of course it is! There is still that 10%, and that 10% can still ruin your day. And this percentage sky rockets if you intend to use that same rifle for putting meat on the table. If you have to settle with just one rifle, go for a semi auto. Ideally you should have a bolt action one and a semi auto rifle. A bolt action and a semiautomatic 308 would make a nice combination.
Whatever you choose, try to keep it within military calibers and military weapons if possible.
It may seem that I have something against bolt rifles but I don't. I think they are fantastic weapons, but I think that semi autos are much better fighting weapons. The idea of "picking them out" 300 meters away with your bolt rifle, as they come in a row blowing whistles and firing warning rounds is laughable at best. Bolt rifles do have advantages over semi autos, accuracy not being the most important one. Bolt rifles such as Mausers last forever and are harder than rocks, and THAT'S important. They are simple, easy to repair tools that will serve you (within their limitations of course) longer than any other weapon. For example, the coil spring on my Mauser 1891 safety broke into 3 separate parts, after almost 100 years of faithful service. I dug into my tool box and found a spring left over from a kitchen shelve door. I cut it approximately to the length of the previous spring, replaced it and the rifle was fixed. There are not many weapons that allow this. And it is a very valuable attribute once the SHTF and spare parts are no longer available.
Stick to common calibers, 223, 7.62x39mm, or 7,62x51 (308). 223 vs. 308? I'm not going there. If you prefer 223 because it has less recoil, it's lighter, or you favor the AR rifle go ahead. If you think that 223 is more powerful than 7,62 sign up to Physics I.
Just remember what I said before, a survivalist is not a soldier serving in Iraq, and you don't have the entire USMF to back you up. You are on your own. You are not going to pin your attackers down with a questionably effective round and wait until someone hits them with artillery.
About ARs. I wouldn't trust my life to a rifle that has more versions than Rocky sequels. the way I see it, it means that the basic design was the problem and there is no solution. On AK all has been said. The most popular rifle on the planet, and popular not because of politics, but because it works. It also fires an intermediate power, effective round, available world wide. SKS are also good, but I'd rather have removable magazines. Again, don't use voodoo on me because I say I wouldn't trust my life to a AR. If you keep your weapon clean, know its limitations and feel comfortable with it, go for it please. A couple of rounds of 223 will kill anyone just as well.
If you want a rifle that can do a little bit of everything relatively well, do yourself a favor and get either a M1A or a FAL in 7,62 (308) with a carbine length barrel. Preferably with a red dot scope and some kind of light mount. Leave full length barrels to hunters and bench rest shooters. Do your homework on both guns and you'll see what I mean.
Choose 308 not because of the added range you can get out of it, but because of its power at all ranges, choose it because it turns cover into concealment. Think about all the possible cover material you can find in a city, like cars, trees, low walls and other structures. The 308 will go right through it, or destroy it after a few rounds. It's a proven cartridge through out the years.
Shotguns.
Shotguns are good general purpose guns. The main advantage I see is the devastating stopping power and the ability to use special ammo, like slugs and less than lethal ammo. I'm not so sure about the role as an "inside house" gun. The muzzle blast is great and quick follow up are not easy, especially when adrenalin is pumping through your system or, even worse, when someone is shooting back at you.
Pistol caliber carbines and SMG.
If possible , I'd choose a SMG reduced to semi auto (only if necessary, of course, full auto selector is better if possible ) or other kind of short, small, pistol caliber carbine. The combination of a 9mm handgun and a 9mm carbine or SMG reduced to semi auto or full auto class III has lots of advantages in my book and is a fine combination.
Some think that full auto is a waste of ammo. I don't think so, not if you know how to use your head, and use this feature wisely. If you can get a short barrel and collapsible stock, you'll also have a weapon that can be hidden under a heavy coat. A red dot scope would enhance accuracy a lot. The advantage of having the same ammo for long and small arm is not to be taken lightly. From the logistical, survivalist point of you, this is one big thumbs up! Think about cowboys and Americans that lived in the west, they also knew the value of using the same ammo for rifle and handgun. They had single action handguns and lever action handguns chambered for the same ammo, the modern survivalist can have the same ammo for his auto pistol and his sub-rifle as well.
Some think that a pistol caliber long arm is just one big clumsy pistol or a rifle sized gun that delivers pistol power and accuracy. This is BS. Anyone that ever fired a pistol caliber rifle or SMG knows that they are much more accurate, hitting torso targets at 100 yards is easy, and a little more if you have a red dot scope. Also, SMGs can manage hot ammo specially made for such guns, much more powerful than the one for handguns. Even if you use regular handgun ammo, the added barrel length adds a few extra feet per second making it more powerful. Just check the information on boy armor. Body armor that is rated to stop 9mm, for example, is not rated to stop the same 9mm ammo out of a SMG or carbine, because the added speed will make that same round penetrate the vest. Anyway, +P ammo is more than enough power out of a SMG or carbine, you don't have to go looking for special SMG ammunition.
If you can get full auto that's one nice feature to have, not worth it if you are on a tight budget, but if you can get it, it may come in handy someday. Full auto SMG are giving police in my country a lot of headaches. A criminal with little or no training will put 3 or 4 cops armed with pistols and shotguns on their toes, just because of the sheer volume of fire these high capacity 9mm deliver. There was this case of a bad guy standing in front of a patrol car full of cops on a red light stop, pulling a 9mm SMG out of his coat and emptying it on full auto. The cops didn't have a chance, he killed them all. The car looked like Swiss cheese with 40 9mm holes all over the vehicle.
Some facts:
1) Those that want to harm you/steal from you don't come with a pirate flag waving over their heads.
2) Neither do they start shooting at you 200 yards away.
3) They won't come riding loud bikes or dressed with their orange, convict just escaped from prison jump suits, so that you can identify them the better. Nor do they all wear chains around their necks and leather jackets. If I had a dollar for each time a person that got robbed told me "They looked like NORMAL people, dressed better than we are", honestly, I would have enough money for a nice gun. There are exceptions, but don't expect them to dress like in the movies.
4) A man with a wife and two or three kids can't set up a watch. I don't care if you are SEAL, SWAT or John Freaking Rambo, no 6th sense is going to tell you that there is a guy pointing a gun at your back when you are trying to fix the water pump that just broke, or carrying a big heavy bag of dried beans you bought that morning.
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True, but if you fail to plan you are planning to fail.
Agreed. But I learned from experience how plans need to change. I was developing a food self sufficient mini farm, now I'm in the city by a bus stop. I didn't give up on the idea of being more resilient, but i did have to go back to the drawing board. I guess the core idea stays the same, but when you are faced with overwhelming circumstances, they are gonna move you, not you them.
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Mag packs galore! CZ Scorpion, 300 blk, and CZ75/SP01/Shadow 2- Started by HyenaHank
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