Shouldering SB15 = SBR. New ATF ruling

[206thsense]

This whole episode is just a giant reminder of how idiotic the ATF, how self-contradictory and non-nonsensical it is. It's like we're living out a real life version of the novel CATCH-22, only less entertaining and more stupid.

Your "misuse" can cause something to be "redesigned"? So if I use a 2 forks to eat sushi, they magically become chopsticks? Or if I shoulder a spatula, it's no longer a spatula?

 

[nehalemguy]

Sure a lot of Sig braces showing up in various classifieds.

E

 

[Slugger]

I can't say I'm surprised by the ATF. They are a troubled group at best

 

[jbett98]

And it's your tax dollars that are at work here.

 

[Idaho44]

The SIG brace is an accessory like many others that are used for the original designed purpose or re-purposed for another use. BUT, you can thank all the 'glory seekers' who need to get 'approval' for their behavior, for the generation of this letter. They are the true problem that provided the impetus for this 'clarification', not the knee jerkers. Per this letter, a sling could be defined as a 'stock' if used to support/stabilize an AR Pistol configuration.

 

[The Heretic]

It was only a matter of time, and it is better sooner than later.

I am sure that ATF knew that this was an issue. Sure, they were maybe prodded into acting on it, but they would have sooner or later.

The way I read it, it is still not illegal to own the SIG brace, nor is it illegal to have it attached to a pistol, just don't blatantly use it as a shoulder stock.

I was considering getting one myself, but now that DT has announced their MDR, the only advantage I see to an AR/AK pistol is the ability to carry it "concealed" and loaded in situations/locales where that would not be legal for a bullpup rifle.

Since I don't see myself ever being in that situation, I don't personally care about that advantage. The only way I would carry a bullpup rifle or AR pistol concealed would be in a SHTF situation, in which case the likelihood I would need to worry about such legalities would be much less than today.

Indeed, I don't think I will ever be in a SHTF situation where I need to be carrying a rifle or AR pistol. Not that I don't prepare - I do, I just think the probabilities are low.

 

[206thsense]

The SIG brace is an accessory like many others that are used for the original designed purpose or re-purposed for another use. BUT, you can thank all the 'glory seekers' who need to get 'approval' for their behavior, for the generation of this letter. They are the true problem that provided the impetus for this 'clarification', not the knee jerkers. Per this letter, a sling could be defined as a 'stock' if used to support/stabilize an AR Pistol configuration.

Yep, another case of the idiots of the gun community trying to poke the bear. I mean, how many letters were sent the the past few months by people to the ATF claiming, "I'm making a SBR with the SIG brace, so do I still have to pay $200? I DON'T WANT TO!"

In any case, I think most folks will go back to wrapping their buffer tubes with paracord, or using special buffer tubes like the Phase 5 Hex tube. AK pistol users are on a lot more shakey ground though, since the buffer tube isn't necessarily a part of the original AK design.

 

[IronMonster]

The SIG brace is not illegal, they have simply ruled using it as a stock classifies it as a NFA item. So the answer is simply not to use it as a stock, but rather as a pistol brace. As long as it is a pistol brace and not a stock you can hold it to your shoulder just like any other pistol. The problem lies in a ATF agent assuming you meant it to be used as a stock rather than a pistol brace. My AR pistols are clearly stamped PISTOL on the receiver. As such I feel that goes a long way towards establishing intent. Unless a ATF agent actually saw it used as a stock I can't see how it could be interpreted as one being mounted to a firearm stamped "Pistol" I will not be using my pistol brace as a stock, ever. However who knows if by accident I may mistakenly find my pistol brace touching my shoulder? That does not make it a rifle stock any more than if I touched the grip of a G19 to my shoulder. This is my public statement of intent. 1/20/15. My AR pistols with SIG braces are INTENDED to be pistols regardless of how they may be used or misused I have no intent for the brace to be redeigned for use as a rifle stock fully understanding that to do so would require NFA registration as a short barreled rifle, which this is clearly not being clearly marked as a pistol.

 

[IronMonster]

I wonder what kind of response you would get if you inquired about registering a AR pistol as a NFA item, even though it is not a controlled weapon, simply because you where conserned about over zealous ATF action? Would they take your $200 registration even though the intent clearly is for it to be a pistol not a SBR? ( the letter would have to be worded in such a way as it was clear the intent was a pistol with a SIG brace, not a SBR with a SIG brace used as a stock)

 

[206thsense]

I wonder what kind of response you would get if you inquired about registering a AR pistol as a NFA item, even though it is not a controlled weapon, simply because you where conserned about over zealous ATF action? Would they take your $200 registration even though the intent clearly is for it to be a pistol not a SBR? ( the letter would have to be worded in such a way as it was clear the intent was a pistol with a SIG brace, not a SBR with a SIG brace used as a stock)

Knowing the extent of greed of people in our government, I'm sure they'd take my $200 to register the first ever NFA spatula.

 

[Member 34319]

 

[IronMonster]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...-statement-sig-sauer-atf-pistol-brace-ruling/

BREAKING: Statement from SIG SAUER About ATF Pistol Brace Ruling
By Nick Leghorn on January 21, 2015



[PRESS RELEASE]

NEWINGTON, N.H. (January 21, 2015)—SIG SAUER, Inc., has issued the following statement about the recent opinion by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in regard to the SB15 and SBX pistol stabilizing braces.


"As reaffirmed in an Open Letter by ATF's Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division dated January 16, 2015, the Pistol Stabilizing Brace (SB15 and SBX) is legal to own, legal to purchase, and legal to install on a pistol. SIG SAUER® believes that the PSB improves the single-handed shooting performance of buffer tube equipped pistols, and offers the product both as an accessory and pre-installed on a number of pistols.

"The Open Letter goes further to rescind a previous private letter regarding the 'intent' of the user of the pistol stabilizing brace. In the letter of January 16, 2015, ATF opines that a person's actual use of the product as a shoulder stock can change the legal classification of the product. However, the Open Letter explicitly states: "ATF hereby confirms that if used as designed—to assist shooters in stabilizing a handgun while shooting with a single hand—the device is not considered a shoulder stock and therefore may be attached to a handgun without making a NFA firearm."

"We question ATF's reversal in position that the classification of the brace may be altered by its use. We are reviewing the legal precedents and justification for this position, and will address our concerns with ATF in the near future.

"We will vigorously defend the classification of all of our products and our consumers' right to use them in accordance with the law. If we find that the open letter opinion is outside the scope of the law, we will seek further review."

 

[locobob]

Glad to see Sig getting involved.

 

[oneharmonic]

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

 

[IronMonster]

There are now cameras in the forest, and satellite resolution that will show the pimple on your nose. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. The ATF is going to protect you, even if it means locking you in a cage or possibly even killing you. That's how much they love you, That they would kill you to make sure your safe.

 

[Member 3687]

Redesign is a word that can go many ways, in manufacturing a redesign is going from a Sig SB15 to a Sig SBX. Same function and achieved goal just new and improved.

By this term if I use a fork to butter my toast have I now redesigned it to a knife and under the rules and laws of a knife? If the prongs are over a certain length and I place it in my shirt pocket after lunch is it a canceled weapon the same as a knife?

What if I am hunting with my 44 mag and lay my barrel on top of my walking stick to make a safer shot will this be a redesign as a forward grip and now under AOW rules? Well I guess if I slant it at a 45 degree it would be legal as it would not be a vertical grip.

What about trees and barriers if I set my hand gun barrel in a crook of a tree or against a barricade during a 3 gun match is it now a redesign as a vertical grip and AOW rules apply?

If I set my rifle with bipod on the hood of my truck has my rig now been redesigned into a tank or APC? Yes this sounds farfetched but is it? The way they stated it they can say everything is a redesign and under their rule depending who is in power at the time.

I have 3 AR pistols two with sig braces and one with an A2 buffer tube all three built and designed as pistols and used as pistols. I also have copies of the 4473s to show this as well. I also have a PAP92 AK pistol. With this being said I also have AR rifles and AK rifles so if I want a rifle I grab a rifle if I want a pistol I will grab a pistol. I will say that all the ARs started out with buffer tubes but the braces just make them look cooler. (IMHO) They also do make it easier to shoot one handed.

As far as keeping quit just remember laws are only laws if man is willing to obey. Ask the President he just ignores the ones he does not agree with.They say the squeaky wheel gets greased so maybe we need to stand up like the antigun crowd and be heard instead of hiding in the shadows cuz it hasn't helped us too well so far.

I suggest that every one write letters to the ATF asking questions like the one I asked above referencing the sig brace and the definition of redesign for clarification and after several hundreds or thousands of letters they may get the hint we are not happy with this answer. We have the power we just need to use it.

No I do not suggest any one break the law just question it with authority because with every new law written a freedom has been lost.

Also write and call your congress men they have the power to make laws, not a bureaucrat so tell them you want it fixed or you will no longer vote for them. Also tell them you want SBRs treated as any other rifle and silencers take off the NFA list as it was designed as a safety device to protect hearing, but only if you want this.

I will have my letters done soon and will post them and the response if I get one.

 

[206thsense]

One of the better videos I've seen about the whole mess. Bravo!

 

[biggie24420]

The ATF managed to suck the fun out of my AR pistol so I just got rid of it because I just don't need the headache and I don't want to deal with those degenerates and their stupid arse opinion letters.

Speaking of opinions, in my opinion the degenerate ATF should go F themselves. Abolish the ATF as far as I am concerned. I wouldn't pi$$ on ATF if they were on fire.... and I'll leave it at that.

 

[jluck]

The ATF managed to suck the fun out of my AR pistol so I just got rid of it because I just don't need the headache and I don't want to deal with those degenerates and their stupid arse opinion letters.

Speaking of opinions, in my opinion the degenerate ATF should go F themselves. Abolish the ATF as far as I am concerned. I wouldn't pi$$ on ATF if they were on fire.... and I'll leave it at that.

It's unhealthy to hold it in... tell us how you really feel.