Shouldering SB15 = SBR. New ATF ruling

[IronMonster]

Doing a little reading I just discovered a interesting bit and as far as I know I am the first one to put this together

Max Kingrey the agent who issued the new letter stating that you where creating a SBR by putting a AR pistol to your shoulder is the same agent who was in charge of the crazy David Olofson case where allegedly Mr Kingrey was able to get Mr Olofson's malfunctioning semi-automatic Olympic Arms rifle to fire a full auto burst resulting in Mr Olofsons 30 month stay with the Feds.

There are accusations that Mr Kingrey made modifications to Mr Olofsons rifle, namely the addition of a DIAS that where unable to be disproved because the BATF would not let the defense inspect the weapon after the tests nor would they disclose how they were able to get the gun to fire full auto.

http://gunowners.org/op0850.htm

 

[IronMonster]

Also as far as the SIG brace being considered a rifle. The ATF's own definition defines a rifle as a

(7) The term "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

That in and of itself should be enough to put you in the clear, as it should be obvious that this was a pistol and its intent and design is to be used as such. The SIG brace is a pistol part, not a rifle part. It is not intended for nor does it serve any purpose on a rifle

You are improperly using a pistol, this should not change the weapons designation. I mean obviously if you held a rifle out in front of you in one and it doesn't magically become a pistol.

I know logic has no real part in this, I dont know why I am even trying to make sense of it.

 

[308]

Doing a little reading I just discovered a interesting bit and as far as I know I am the first one to put this together

Max Kingrey the agent who issued the new letter stating that you where creating a SBR by putting a AR pistol to your shoulder is the same agent who was in charge of the crazy David Olofson case where allegedly Mr Kingrey was able to get Mr Olofson's malfunctioning semi-automatic Olympic Arms rifle to fire a full auto burst resulting in Mr Olofsons 30 month stay with the Feds.

There are accusations that Mr Kingrey made modifications to Mr Olofsons rifle, namely the addition of a DIAS that where unable to be disproved because the BATF would not let the defense inspect the weapon after the tests nor would they disclose how they were able to get the gun to fire full auto.

http://gunowners.org/op0850.htm

Something about that story stinks, and it's not only the BATFink part. What about the MISSING PART?

Olafson had loaned the gun to a young man, who was his neighbor. At a range the gun fired two bursts of three rounds each and then jammed. Normal people would understand that a gun that jams is malfunctioning and seek to get it fixed.

INSERT MISSING PART HERE...HOW DID IT GO FROM "NEIGHBOR HAS A MALFUNCTION" to "BATFinks NOW HAVE THE GUN AND ARE TESTING IT??

For the Bureau (aka The Gang), a malfunctioning gun is an excellent opportunity to rack up an easy conviction on an illegal machine gun charge.

The gun was tested twice... both times with very different results. The first test came back with a report that the gun is a semi-automatic rifle. The next test came back with a report that it had fired a 20-round burst, and was thus a machine gun.

 

[Norm0931]

Iron, I'll clarify your response about the letter "sticking" and the "rule of law." The letters are for "guidance" to law enforcement at all levels on the way BATFE interprets the laws in order to bring cases against someone. So, he is basically saying, his office views it as an SBR when you shoulder the SG Brace. His office would charge someone with the crime of illegal possession and use of a short barreled rifle. They may not win in court, but they would go forward with prosecuting someone.

 

[IronMonster]

Something about that story stinks, and it's not only the BATFink part. What about the MISSING PART?


INSERT MISSING PART HERE...HOW DID IT GO FROM "NEIGHBOR HAS A MALFUNCTION" to "BATFinks NOW HAVE THE GUN AND ARE TESTING IT??

There are lots of story's on this case, And from memory the kid had it at a range and the RSO confiscated it and called the cops who called the Feds

 

[Member 5605]

Iron, I'll clarify your response about the letter "sticking" and the "rule of law." The letters are for "guidance" to law enforcement at all levels on the way BATFE interprets the laws in order to bring cases against someone. So, he is basically saying, his office views it as an SBR when you shoulder the SG Brace. His office would charge someone with the crime of illegal possession and use of a short barreled rifle. They may not win in court, but they would go forward with prosecuting someone.

Who wants to be the test case and sit in a holding cell until it's figured out, they are bankrupt from lawyer fees and lose everything they have to test the power of the BATFE?

Not it.

 

[IronMonster]

Yep, me either, Im out.


Not that I plan on dumping my AR pistols, But the Sig braces are coming off and they wont go to the range till I know I wont be harassed about it.

I got too much to lose and its simply not worth the risk, even though the risk is extremely small.

Its kind of like the reverse lottery. Tens of thousands will play, one poor sap will end up being the test case.

 

[Stomper]

My money says they've seen a noticable drop in SBR applications @ $200 a pop and need to plug the hole in the proverbial revenue dike.

I am/was seriously planning on building an AR pistol from an 80% lower with a Sig-Brace, but for a mere $50 more than the cost the brace (and a 6-12 month wait) I can get a tax-stamped SBR and be done with it (interstate travel/use is a pain), although having a "ghost gun" that is essentially a usable "pistol" has its appeal too.

Based on the current BATF "tangle" this would make it a "break glass and use in an emergency" SBR.

 

[locobob]

Wow, what utter nonsense. If you apply this kind of "logic" then any rifle fired with one hand is a pistol and any pistol fired from the shoulder is a rifle.

 

[IronMonster]

Exactly.

I fooled them through, I took a silver sharpie and wrote " Pistol" on the side of my receiver. Now I am untouchable. Obviously so indicated there is no way it can now be confused with a short barreled rifle.

 

[Hawaiian]

Don't roll the dice unless you are willing to pay the price. The price of a Tax Stamp is much less than what the alternative could end up costing you.

 

[KalamaMark]

Those youtube guys better lose the videos then

Or not.

 

[The Heretic]

"I believe in judges and juries and laws"

Uhhh, okay.

I don't.

I know that sometimes a judge or jury sometimes decide the right way and sometimes they decide the wrong way.

I am too old to take such risks.

YMMV

 

[jbett98]

I would trust a jury of my peers from Burns or Pendelton concerning a firearm related case, but not jurists selected from Portland.

 

[IronMonster]

That is exactly right. I live in the socialist hellhole known as Seattle. Nope, I have no faith that justice would prevail.

Now If I lived in Southern Idaho, Not only would I have no fear of the legal system, I would have no fear of been harassed about such trivial nonsense in the first place. People like guns there, They dont view the simple ownership of them as a mental illness as they do here in Seattle.

Mark I applaud your actions, I would not be so caviler. I am not sure If you saw my earlier post about Max being the BATF guy in the Olofson case, But that right there should indicate your trust in the legal system is misplaced.

 

[The Heretic]

BTW

This would most likely be a federal case, which may or may not take place in a large metro area where the makeup of a judge or jury would possibly be less friendly to firearms rights.

 

[IronMonster]

Well in my case since the US District Court is in Seattle and the Federal Detention Center is in Seatac I think it would be a pretty safe assumption.

 

[locobob]

http://blog.princelaw.com/2014/12/2...ry-tale-of-an-ar-pistol-to-sbr-through-magic/

 

[IronMonster]

Maybe this will be the impetus for eliminaing the registration on SBR's in the first place. The argument that it is a SBR depending on how it is used shows that a SBR would be in fact nothing more than a pistol if fired from one hand or with a folded stock.

The reality of the SBR and Suppressor registry is it does absolutely nothing other than create bureaucratic red tape costing tax payers money with no benefit.

SBR's and Suppressors should have a simple BGC same as any other newly purchased firearm.

Those of you who think the $200 tax stamp contributes to revenue are delusional. The Govenment probably spends $5000 of taxpayer money to collect that 200 bucks.

 

[Roger65]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/12/foghorn/calm-pistol-brace-ruling-hasnt-changed/