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Well said, it's always best when we police ourselves.
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Should Your Home Defense Weapon Be Loaded?
- Thread Starter G8rHunter
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Just for fun I looked at post #60...And it doesn't say "It depends"....
Personally I think it was answered with post #7....
Andy
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I concur that "it depends."
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I don't have a dog in this fight, but all my guns are loaded 24 x7. All but the 1 on my person remains locked in the safe. Can't say if that good or bad, just the way I've done it.
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Man proposes that running an action can cause a malfunction in even the BEST scenarios,
Other man states that won't happen with good training and well conditioned weapons don't malfunction.
Man says things can get hard and you can get ham-fisted with adrenaline pumping,
Other man says that won't happen with good training, all people can run actions malfunction free, states it's "unrealistic".
Man offers video evidence of empty chamber carrying going wrong.
Other man splits hairs/ dismisses because locations are different (no bed room so it doesn't count?) despite drawing STRONG parallels for close quarters shooting, or lack there-of.
Other man states;"If you live in a home, a break in will take time, make noise, and the residents will have natural advantages of "home turf" and generally time to grab and chamber a gun. Those guns are generally in a drawer or on a shelf. If there are kids in the home, prudent to keep them unloaded for safety. Also, home invasions are super risky and of low reward for home invaders, so they are FAR more rare than cash rich instant score convenience stores. So, more rare, and higher risk for invaders, and residents have ample time to respond."
Man would argue that some break-ins occur without a lot of noise, some thieves are professional and might be able to bypass securities, poison/kill/distract dogs and pick locks- these things aren't unheard of nor uncommon.
Man would offer evidence for the question; "Can you even present 1 example of a person who died or was raped or whatever because s/he was unable to chamber a round?"
In the form of [GRAPHIC VIDEO] Is Israeli Carry (Condition 3) Too Slow for EDC Personal Defense? - The Truth About Guns, but he knows it'll be dismissed with a "well he wasn't at home so it doesn't count." Despite the imploring of Other man didn't specify location.
Other man states; "Also, home invasions are super risky and of low reward for home invaders, so they are FAR more rare than cash rich instant score convenience stores. So, more rare, and higher risk for invaders, and residents have ample time to respond."
Man would offer empirical evidence than most home invasions occur when you're not home, only 27.6% occur when people are home and thus less risky than convenience stores (cited source) https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf. 27.6% does seem to be lower than the number of convenience stores that are occupied by at least one employee at all times. My guess? 100% of them, probably. Only 17% of the homes in the report had security systems and probably 100% of convenience stores I've been in in the last 25 years (don't remember the first 5) have at least a camera on the front door. Still seems like they'd be easier? Well, convenience store employee(s) and even customers could fight off a thief, but you can't stop a burglary if you're not home, like 72.4% of the homes that are robbed when vacant.
Other man would probably dismiss info for some reason.
Home invasion robberies- 3.7 million instances with 2.5 million in losses accrued. (2003-2007 I cant get reputable info for 2017) (https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf)
v.s
Convenience store robberies- 17,401 (2017) (FBI Releases 2016 Crime Statistics)
"Not difficult concepts here." Except your concepts are empirically false.
Ill stick to classifieds.
Other man states that won't happen with good training and well conditioned weapons don't malfunction.
Man says things can get hard and you can get ham-fisted with adrenaline pumping,
Other man says that won't happen with good training, all people can run actions malfunction free, states it's "unrealistic".
Man offers video evidence of empty chamber carrying going wrong.
Other man splits hairs/ dismisses because locations are different (no bed room so it doesn't count?) despite drawing STRONG parallels for close quarters shooting, or lack there-of.
Other man states;"If you live in a home, a break in will take time, make noise, and the residents will have natural advantages of "home turf" and generally time to grab and chamber a gun. Those guns are generally in a drawer or on a shelf. If there are kids in the home, prudent to keep them unloaded for safety. Also, home invasions are super risky and of low reward for home invaders, so they are FAR more rare than cash rich instant score convenience stores. So, more rare, and higher risk for invaders, and residents have ample time to respond."
Man would argue that some break-ins occur without a lot of noise, some thieves are professional and might be able to bypass securities, poison/kill/distract dogs and pick locks- these things aren't unheard of nor uncommon.
Man would offer evidence for the question; "Can you even present 1 example of a person who died or was raped or whatever because s/he was unable to chamber a round?"
In the form of [GRAPHIC VIDEO] Is Israeli Carry (Condition 3) Too Slow for EDC Personal Defense? - The Truth About Guns, but he knows it'll be dismissed with a "well he wasn't at home so it doesn't count." Despite the imploring of Other man didn't specify location.
Other man states; "Also, home invasions are super risky and of low reward for home invaders, so they are FAR more rare than cash rich instant score convenience stores. So, more rare, and higher risk for invaders, and residents have ample time to respond."
Man would offer empirical evidence than most home invasions occur when you're not home, only 27.6% occur when people are home and thus less risky than convenience stores (cited source) https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf. 27.6% does seem to be lower than the number of convenience stores that are occupied by at least one employee at all times. My guess? 100% of them, probably. Only 17% of the homes in the report had security systems and probably 100% of convenience stores I've been in in the last 25 years (don't remember the first 5) have at least a camera on the front door. Still seems like they'd be easier? Well, convenience store employee(s) and even customers could fight off a thief, but you can't stop a burglary if you're not home, like 72.4% of the homes that are robbed when vacant.
Other man would probably dismiss info for some reason.
Home invasion robberies- 3.7 million instances with 2.5 million in losses accrued. (2003-2007 I cant get reputable info for 2017) (https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf)
v.s
Convenience store robberies- 17,401 (2017) (FBI Releases 2016 Crime Statistics)
"Not difficult concepts here." Except your concepts are empirically false.
Ill stick to classifieds.
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You're linked video of the disaster is broken...well the link inside the article is anyway...
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Man is disarmed and shot with his own gun after he got into an argument in the middle of a bar | Daily Mail Online
Try this one. Not the original angle I saw, which shows the disarming patron's hand to hand prowess much better.
Try this one. Not the original angle I saw, which shows the disarming patron's hand to hand prowess much better.
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Man uses a dozen examples of CARRY GUN FAILURES IN PUBLIC AGAINST 1 OR MORE ASSAILANTS to attempt to prove his point about "HOME DEFENSE GUN STORAGE - CHAMBERED OR NO?"
Next up: Because Nascar drivers don't have headlights on their cars, then nobody should have headlights on their cars.
Home defense offers entirely different sets of risks and scenarios than being out in public. It turns out that "defense" strategies do in fact differ. I'm sorry if that's lost on some people.
To illustrate the point:
1. When you are in a public market or store with a gun on your hip:
A: is it likely a child or stranger can get to your gun? No.
B: is it more or less likely that any cash-heavy business you are in will be robbed, versus your home invasion? Yes, more likely that a cash business will be robbed.
C: Will your reaction time be greater or lesser than in a typical home invasion? Reaction lesser in public, due to more distractions, and the speed of a planned robbery of a business open to the public (i.e. robbers plot their attack, walk in, and instantly draw guns in the standard robbery; leaving reaction time of nearly zero).
In summary, in public, a person is always drawing on a drawn gun or immediate attack with no warning.
Contrast:
2. Home gun storage and home invasion when you are presumably home, otherwise it's a moot point:
A: is it more or less likely that a child can access your loaded gun. Depends, but it's "more" likely if the gun is immediately available and loaded for HD use.
B: is it more or less likely for a home invasion, or a public store robbery? The latter is far more likely since it's open to the public, easier, and less risky (often business has compliance policy, and/or unarmed employees, and robberies often take mere seconds to grab cash and go).
C: imagine your home. How long and how much noise will a team of people make to intrude? Now compare that to the local pizza shop or convenience store with heavy public foot traffic where the first warning of a robbery is a gun in their face. Obviously, your home invasion defense will allow for probably 10 seconds to react, and there's smashing doors and windows as a "hint" that you're being robbed/attacked, allowing you to retreat and secure the shotgun and CHAMBER it. Public location will all for probably 1 second to react.
In summary, if you're home and retrieving a STORED DEFENSIVE GUN, that implies or suggests the common situation where the home owner DOES have some forewarning of a pending attack, and maneuvers to get the weapon. In retrieving said weapon, simply rack it....
Edited to add: I concede that sometimes an intruder gains secretive access and is immediately upon the resident. That's a perimeter security fail, and that person probably can't get to or operate a gun anyway. I.e. they are inept unteachable morons.
I'll also edit to add, some intruders are too stupid to know how to operate a "found gun" in the home. But they aren't too stupid to know how to pull a trigger. So it's a double edged sword and you could walk in and be shot with your own gun, which would otherwise be "inoperable" because the chamber is empty.
Next up: Because Nascar drivers don't have headlights on their cars, then nobody should have headlights on their cars.
Home defense offers entirely different sets of risks and scenarios than being out in public. It turns out that "defense" strategies do in fact differ. I'm sorry if that's lost on some people.
To illustrate the point:
1. When you are in a public market or store with a gun on your hip:
A: is it likely a child or stranger can get to your gun? No.
B: is it more or less likely that any cash-heavy business you are in will be robbed, versus your home invasion? Yes, more likely that a cash business will be robbed.
C: Will your reaction time be greater or lesser than in a typical home invasion? Reaction lesser in public, due to more distractions, and the speed of a planned robbery of a business open to the public (i.e. robbers plot their attack, walk in, and instantly draw guns in the standard robbery; leaving reaction time of nearly zero).
In summary, in public, a person is always drawing on a drawn gun or immediate attack with no warning.
Contrast:
2. Home gun storage and home invasion when you are presumably home, otherwise it's a moot point:
A: is it more or less likely that a child can access your loaded gun. Depends, but it's "more" likely if the gun is immediately available and loaded for HD use.
B: is it more or less likely for a home invasion, or a public store robbery? The latter is far more likely since it's open to the public, easier, and less risky (often business has compliance policy, and/or unarmed employees, and robberies often take mere seconds to grab cash and go).
C: imagine your home. How long and how much noise will a team of people make to intrude? Now compare that to the local pizza shop or convenience store with heavy public foot traffic where the first warning of a robbery is a gun in their face. Obviously, your home invasion defense will allow for probably 10 seconds to react, and there's smashing doors and windows as a "hint" that you're being robbed/attacked, allowing you to retreat and secure the shotgun and CHAMBER it. Public location will all for probably 1 second to react.
In summary, if you're home and retrieving a STORED DEFENSIVE GUN, that implies or suggests the common situation where the home owner DOES have some forewarning of a pending attack, and maneuvers to get the weapon. In retrieving said weapon, simply rack it....
Edited to add: I concede that sometimes an intruder gains secretive access and is immediately upon the resident. That's a perimeter security fail, and that person probably can't get to or operate a gun anyway. I.e. they are inept unteachable morons.
I'll also edit to add, some intruders are too stupid to know how to operate a "found gun" in the home. But they aren't too stupid to know how to pull a trigger. So it's a double edged sword and you could walk in and be shot with your own gun, which would otherwise be "inoperable" because the chamber is empty.
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You must not have read the linked material. You're still asserting things that are empirically false.
Also, in my excessive number of posts, I never told you to change your carry method. I know I'll never change your mind, what I asserted to you- in an attempt to find a common ground is that you are capable of inciting a malfunction. But you can't admit you're capable of such. Luckily for you, you're both much more capable and leaps and bounds smarter than "some" intruders that cant operate firearms, although short of seeing the hammer down on a single action, or a bolt open or mag missing it can be very difficult to ascertain if a gun pointed at your head is loaded. I think theres a firearm safety rule that touches on that.
Also, in my excessive number of posts, I never told you to change your carry method. I know I'll never change your mind, what I asserted to you- in an attempt to find a common ground is that you are capable of inciting a malfunction. But you can't admit you're capable of such. Luckily for you, you're both much more capable and leaps and bounds smarter than "some" intruders that cant operate firearms, although short of seeing the hammer down on a single action, or a bolt open or mag missing it can be very difficult to ascertain if a gun pointed at your head is loaded. I think theres a firearm safety rule that touches on that.
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Also, underestimating or assuming your attacker is inept might be considered hubristic and megalomaniacal. I've heard it taught always assume you're fighting yourself. But what do I know?
Love them lolDon't you all love these divisive topics that just get us all arguing? I see a trend.....
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No. I loaded my gun once and I died.
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And, I had NOTHING to do with perceived argument.Don't you all love these divisive topics that just get us all arguing? I see a trend.....
I got my answer a long time ago, and Andy was correct!Personally I think it was answered with post #7....
Andy
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1) I once answered the door with my sidearm in Cond.3, realized that had he attacked I could not have responded quickly enough. (Long story short.)
2) The answer to this question depends on the individual conditions. We have very few people come into our home and no children. Thus I have different considerations from someone with children. My SD/HD pieces would be Cond.1 if they had not fallen out of my oceangoing kayak.
3) For HD long guns I suggest a cabinet with the keys in the lock, to be removed when leaving the house.
2) The answer to this question depends on the individual conditions. We have very few people come into our home and no children. Thus I have different considerations from someone with children. My SD/HD pieces would be Cond.1 if they had not fallen out of my oceangoing kayak.
3) For HD long guns I suggest a cabinet with the keys in the lock, to be removed when leaving the house.
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