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I think that a person who leaves both a firearm and the ammunition for it in an unsecured state should meet with penalty were a person accidentally injured because of their improper safety practices.

I think it should not be a criminal proceeding, but civil.

And threads like this make me nervous...I gotta go check the gun locks now. Damnit.
 
Riot's point - which I believe to be a very valid one - is that beyond ones' own children that unless you strictly prohibit any other life forms in your house that there is the possibility of children not under your direct control roaming in your residence. And while your children may be raised to not touch things that don't belong to them and may ask their friends to respect the same, it doesn't mean they will.

What you can control is easy accessibility to firearms in your home. And if you have children or children present, if you've made that accessibility easy (or at least not hard) then you are neglecting you responsibilities as a gun owner.

It's all fine and good if nothing bad happens, but in the rare cases that it does we all see it in the news. People are quick to blame the news for blowing things out of porportion, but those are accidental (or intentional) shootings that were preventable if easy access to unlocked or laying around firearms was removed.

It's a little surprising that all gun owners aren't on board with stopping the perception of gun owners as being negligent or careless. A united voice calling for responsible securing of firearms - even if you choose not to practice it yourself - makes far more sense than saying, "that wouldn't happen in MY household." Reminds me a lot of the invincibility syndrome that most teenagers have. "Couldn't happen to ME."

Believe it or not, if you train you children properly, they will control their friends that visit themselves, you will not have to. In all the years we had kids in the house, (1970-1998) and sometimes a lot of them, we never had a lock on our bedroom door, but we also never had any children getting into the bedroom and mussing around...why? Our bedroom was absolutely verboten to OUR kids if we did not invite them in....and they (our kids) were the ones that made sure the other kids did not go there. We never told them to make sure they kept the visitors out, they did it on their own.

The same thing with the glass front gun cabinat with no locks. If you wanted to handle/shoot...you asked first...never had a single kid ever open that gun cabinat even though they could see every weapon plainly. It all has to do with training. Visitor kids that acted up were sent home immeadiately, if they acted up two times they were sent home and our kids were told those kids were not welcome...consistancy and fairness..we had very few rules, but the few we did have were very strictly enforced. One our rules was, you want to shoot, you ask, and we will go shoot...they asked, we did not put them off, we went out and shot...one of the advantages of living on a larger piece of land in the county.
 
Ever heard the expression "Attention span of an 11 year old"?

There's a reason for that.


Just so we are clear, the only gun that is out of my locked safe when not being shot or cleaned is the one on my hip. It goes from the hip to the night stand and back to the hip. No, I do not leave guns laying around my house unattended.
Glad to hear it...really.
 
I think there are separate issues here. A child grabbing a gun and taking it is separate from somone breaking into the house and stealing a gun. What is the difference between a stolen gun or a stolen car. They both kill people. How many stolen cars kill people, seems like that story does not fit the gun activists agenda.
As far as a child under 16 living in the house getting a gun and harming some one then the parent should fell some heat.
But a break in theft...none. lets punish the theif not the victim.


Huh? If I lock my guns up in a safe, a burglar breaks in and cuts the safe open and steals the guns that is not my fault. HOWEVER, if I leave my guns out and someone steals them then it IS my fault. See the difference yet?

Criminals are opportunists that take advantage of easy targets of opportunity. You can never be completely "burglar proof" just like a vest can never be "bullet proof". Nevertheless, you need to take steps and measures to ensure that your stuff is not stollen or taken by criminals. Why? Because the police have no obligation to protect you or your property so YOU must be held accountable to do so.

So, just as you have to lock up your guns from criminals taking them you should also lock them up so that children don't play with them.

Lock up your guns and educate your children before some anti-gun nut makes it a law that we have to do it and on their terms.
 
Huh? If I lock my guns up in a safe, a burglar breaks in and cuts the safe open and steals the guns that is not my fault. HOWEVER, if I leave my guns out and someone steals them then it IS my fault. See the difference yet?

I'll disagree there. Other than that, I do agree education is priority.

Safes are at best a delay, but generally I would consider them more of a false sense of security.
 
Huh? If I lock my guns up in a safe, a burglar breaks in and cuts the safe open and steals the guns that is not my fault. HOWEVER, if I leave my guns out and someone steals them then it IS my fault. See the difference yet?

Criminals are opportunists that take advantage of easy targets of opportunity. You can never be completely "burglar proof" just like a vest can never be "bullet proof". Nevertheless, you need to take steps and measures to ensure that your stuff is not stollen or taken by criminals. Why? Because the police have no obligation to protect you or your property so YOU must be held accountable to do so.

So, just as you have to lock up your guns from criminals taking them you should also lock them up so that children don't play with them.

Lock up your guns and educate your children before some anti-gun nut makes it a law that we have to do it and on their terms.

I disagree that if someone steals anything that isn't locked up, it's the fault of teh victim because they did not properly secure whatever it was. A thief is a thief, it has nothing to do with who owns, or how that owned item is stored. Doesn't matter if it is a car, silverware, jewlery, food, or a gun. The VICTIM is not responsible for what a CRIMINAL does. That is Brady propaganda, not legal reality. Shear BS.

I grew up in a land and a country where you could leave your door unlocked forever, and never worry...still do where I live now. I'm sorry you cannot experience what freedom really is.
 
Believe it or not, if you train you children properly, they will control their friends that visit themselves, you will not have to. In all the years we had kids in the house, (1970-1998) and sometimes a lot of them, we never had a lock on our bedroom door, but we also never had any children getting into the bedroom and mussing around...why? Our bedroom was absolutely verboten to OUR kids if we did not invite them in....and they (our kids) were the ones that made sure the other kids did not go there. We never told them to make sure they kept the visitors out, they did it on their own.

The same thing with the glass front gun cabinat with no locks. If you wanted to handle/shoot...you asked first...never had a single kid ever open that gun cabinat even though they could see every weapon plainly. It all has to do with training. Visitor kids that acted up were sent home immeadiately, if they acted up two times they were sent home and our kids were told those kids were not welcome...consistancy and fairness..we had very few rules, but the few we did have were very strictly enforced. One our rules was, you want to shoot, you ask, and we will go shoot...they asked, we did not put them off, we went out and shot...one of the advantages of living on a larger piece of land in the county.


I'm glad you had positive experiences raising your children. This next part may come as a bit of a shock, however. The world is not full of kids who exercise the same understanding of right or wrong no matter how they're raised. And when those bad accidents happen, perception - which the media does an excellent job of framing to sell emotional reaction - becomes reality.
 
I grew up in a land and a country where you could leave your door unlocked forever, and never worry...still do where I live now. I'm sorry you cannot experience what freedom really is.

In most parts of the country, times have changed. Evolved or devolved is open to discussion. My parents tell the same types of stories you've shared here, but there's an acknowledgment that life in most places (urban/suburban) aren't the same as they were 30 and 40 years ago.
 

Last year, The Clark co. Sheriff's deputy's gun was in a gun safe...and he blamed the safe...BS,,,all safes have a security rating...on how many MINUTES it take a pro to open...unless you have an extremely expensive bank vault, most safes under $10,000 have a security rating of 30 minutes or less...some much less, as in less than a minute.

You may or may not agree with this statement, but IMHO, any safe that can be opened by a safecracker, can be opened by a child. Consider "child proof" medicine bottle caps...how many of you have asked your kids to open that new medicine bottle for you? I know I have.

There is one, and only one, safe way with children...it is called safety training, and discipline. What would be a good additional law would be a requirement for all schools, starting in kindergarten, to have a mandatory 2 hour+ firearms safety class, taught by a professional firearms instructor, the beginning of every school year, in every school in the state right up to grade 12. maybe go to a one day class with actual live fire starting in Junior high.

Now, that would stop MOST young children from "exploring" a weapon they found, or trying to break into the firearm storage place their parents or others have to discouver the "mystery" of this thing the "cannot touch"
 
Huh? If I lock my guns up in a safe, a burglar breaks in and cuts the safe open and steals the guns that is not my fault. HOWEVER, if I leave my guns out and someone steals them then it IS my fault. See the difference yet?

Criminals are opportunists that take advantage of easy targets of opportunity. You can never be completely "burglar proof" just like a vest can never be "bullet proof". Nevertheless, you need to take steps and measures to ensure that your stuff is not stollen or taken by criminals. Why? Because the police have no obligation to protect you or your property so YOU must be held accountable to do

So, just as you have to lock up your guns from criminals taking them you should also lock them up so that children don't play with them.

Lock up your guns and educate your children before some anti-gun nut makes it a law that we have to do it and on their terms.

So are you saying that if a theif kicks in your locked front door, goes to your closet and steals a shotgun it would be your fault?
 
Had a neighbor who had NFA toys. We both had plenty of land and enjoyed shooting. Problem was every time he would leave town I'd hear auto weapons fire coming from my neighbors house in the middle of the night. I'd call his cell phone and he'd say "that's impossible, my kids are home and they would never touch my guns" .

Head in sand.
 
Last year, The Clark co. Sheriff's deputy's gun was in a gun safe...and he blamed the safe...BS,,,all safes have a security rating...on how many MINUTES it take a pro to open...unless you have an extremely expensive bank vault, most safes under $10,000 have a security rating of 30 minutes or less...some much less, as in less than a minute.

You may or may not agree with this statement, but IMHO, any safe that can be opened by a safecracker, can be opened by a child. Consider "child proof" medicine bottle caps...how many of you have asked your kids to open that new medicine bottle for you? I know I have.

There is one, and only one, safe way with children...it is called safety training, and discipline. What would be a good additional law would be a requirement for all schools, starting in kindergarten, to have a mandatory 2 hour+ firearms safety class, taught by a professional firearms instructor, the beginning of every school year, in every school in the state right up to grade 12. maybe go to a one day class with actual live fire starting in Junior high.

Now, that would stop MOST young children from "exploring" a weapon they found, or trying to break into the firearm storage place their parents or others have to discouver the "mystery" of this thing the "cannot touch"

best response of the whole thread. its a parent's responsibility to teach a child. for sure, the one thing that has changed in the last 20 years is how much teaching the parent does and how much the child does. it's called a "lack of discipline". when children aren't disciplined, they grow into parents that don't discipline. without discipline, there is no control. not sure how the child experts can't figure that one out. the real difference of opinions in this thread are between those that have raised kids and the others that are just experts on the subject. as far as the OP's topic, it is already the law that parents are responsible for their minor children. only fools would expect more laws or regulations to make any difference at all.
 
There is one, and only one, safe way with children...it is called safety training, and discipline.

You are absolutely right...but since that would require accountability on the parents to train their children- and having said that, you still don't admit that the parents should be held accountable?

So are you saying that if a theif kicks in your locked front door, goes to your closet and steals a shotgun it would be your fault?

Let me put it in a perspective you can probably understand...if I was a cop and left a few fully automatic AR-15s in a trunk of a cruiser and they were stolen would you not think that I should have been held accountable for their loss?

When I was in the service, guns (along with other "sensitive items") were held under guard or in a locked and alarmed armories. Even if a bullet came up missing it was on the armorer. Am I saying you need a safe? No. Am I saying you need an alarm? No. What I am saying is that you should do everything you can to avoid you stuff from being stolen by criminals and to keep them out of the hands of children. Not having a safe because you can't afford one is completely different than not having a safe because you don't think you will need one.

I am all for people carrying guns and defending themselves. But I am also for holding people accountable. If you have children in your home (even VISITING) you need to have guns secured- either on your person or in a safe. Period. That safe could be anything from a locked room, to a gun cabinet to an actual gun safe...the thing is the intent to secure the firearm and the ability to do so. If you have an arsenal of firearms you should have a safe for them (or have them buried, or in some other hidden room). If you had a death threat and decided to purchase a gun and threw it in your desk it is a little different. A shotgun stolen out of a closet in a locked house? Not so much...unless you left it in a cabin out in the woods. Get it yet? It's called common sense...something that apparently isn't all that common.
 
best response of the whole thread. its a parent's responsibility to teach a child. for sure, the one thing that has changed in the last 20 years is how much teaching the parent does and how much the child does. it's called a "lack of discipline". when children aren't disciplined, they grow into parents that don't discipline. without discipline, there is no control. not sure how the child experts can't figure that one out. the real difference of opinions in this thread are between those that have raised kids and the others that are just experts on the subject. as far as the OP's topic, it is already the law that parents are responsible for their minor children. only fools would expect more laws or regulations to make any difference at all.

Its not just the discipline of the children from the parents but also the parents wanting to spend time with their children and wanting to teach them.

Sometimes the parents should be held accountable for their children's actions, sometimes not. It depends on the many many variables that could have occurred.

My .02
 
One should be held CIVILLY liable when an innocent is hurt with a gun that you failed to secure from people lawfully in your home.

That's IT.

Failure to secure your guns from your own kids, and the obvious part: FAILURE TO EDUCATE YOUR OWN KIDS ON BASIC GUN SAFETY should be a civil matter, not a criminal one. I have no sympathy for anyone who's kids shoot themselves or anyone else by mistake. TEACH YOUR CHILDREN. It's not anyone else's job.
 
Gun safety expertise: Political pretenders versus the Real Deal

At the end of an emotionally brutal week in western Washington during which two youngsters died in remarkably similar firearms accidents in Snohomish and Pierce counties, one thing has emerged from the ensuing debate that has, perhaps, never been more clear.

<broken link removed>
 
The responsible adult should be charged with child endangerment resulting in injury/death. The responsible adult, would, in most cases, be the owner of the forearm.
 
Let me put it in a perspective you can probably understand...if I was a cop and left a few fully automatic AR-15s in a trunk of a cruiser and they were stolen would you not think that I should have been held accountable for their loss?
That would be dependent on if he was following his departments procedures for the situation (edit: I originally said if his department had a procedure that would cover the situation. So I am editing it for clarification). I would only hold him accountable if he was not following that procedure.
When I was in the service, guns (along with other "sensitive items") were held under guard or in a locked and alarmed armories. Even if a bullet came up missing it was on the armorer. Am I saying you need a safe? No. Am I saying you need an alarm? No. What I am saying is that you should do everything you can to avoid you stuff from being stolen by criminals and to keep them out of the hands of children. Not having a safe because you can't afford one is completely different than not having a safe because you don't think you will need one.
That's not entirely true, the armorer is only on the hook if he had not been following DA procedures and regulations.
I am all for people carrying guns and defending themselves. But I am also for holding people accountable. If you have children in your home (even VISITING) you need to have guns secured- either on your person or in a safe. Period. That safe could be anything from a locked room, to a gun cabinet to an actual gun safe...the thing is the intent to secure the firearm and the ability to do so. If you have an arsenal of firearms you should have a safe for them (or have them buried, or in some other hidden room). If you had a death threat and decided to purchase a gun and threw it in your desk it is a little different. A shotgun stolen out of a closet in a locked house? Not so much...unless you left it in a cabin out in the woods. Get it yet? It's called common sense...something that apparently isn't all that common.
Negligence laws are already in place, additional ones won't change a thing. Safes are a good thing, requiring safes is a bad one.

If a home owner is at fault if a thief steals something means rape victims are at fault for being raped. And for that matter I should have kept the $40 I found laying on the ground in Wal-Mart because it was the owners fault for dropping it.
 

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