SHORTAGE NOT ENDING ANYTIME SOON.

[Certaindeaf]

Also, most reloaders are into self sufficiency/ independence.
I don't see how having essentially an LLC or co-op would further that mindset/goal.
Again, I can see a few friends going in on a buy though, to split large lots and defray shipping costs, realize economies of scale, etc.

 

[Trailboss]

Again, I can see a few friends going in on a buy though, to split large lots and defray shipping costs, realize economies of scale, etc.

I completely agree here.

 

[XSubSailor]

Great idea, but if the commercial reloaders are sold out due to component or raw material shortages, what makes you think a "co-op" would not suffer the same shortages?

Plus, no matter whether or not you call it a co-op or some other innocuous term, the government would consider it a business and tax and regulate it as such...so much for cost savings and an endless supply of ammo.

Your best bet is to become a reloader yourself...I know of no one who has tried it and later decided it was a bad decision. In addition to the cost savings from acting alone, group buys provide additional savings, and trading components you have in excess for those you require (i.e. trading powder for primers, etc) has kept many re-loaders shooting during any shortage.

I hate to admit it, but it's been kind of nice being at the range without all the crowds...the only ones that I regularly see at the range are reloaders themselves.

 

[RVTECH]

However farming co-ops haven't worked out well at all.

I agree. The acronym 'Co-Op' usually means communal thinking and I don't need to elaborate on that. The idea of 'group buys', 'Co-Op' this and that are idealistic fantasies. Those terms are euphemisms for the word 'Business' and for a group that takes dedicated involvement, equal funding (or equal credit risks) and a plan that requires more than just a Co-Op mentality. The biggest problem would be finding people who are able to share the load financially, educationally and be able to devote the time necessary - as is with any business partnership. As mentioned before, a couple friends splitting an order on commonly used components to avoid shipping or to reduce the hazmat expense is one thing but to organize anything more than that - and with people you do not know is quite another.

 

[jib]

That may be the case, but when it comes to something like my carry gun, I like the reliability and consistency of a commercial load.

Sorry but you are clueless.

 

[RVTECH]

It that's not a concern to someone, then it's not a bad thought.

It's NOT a concern at all to those who have made the commitment and expense to reload and do so safely and responsibly, and reap the rewards. Reloading is not to be taken up as a chore, purely regarded as a a money saving task to be able to shoot more. It is a serious undertaking as an extension of your interest in shooting and becomes an integral part of such, as well as a science and hobby at the same time. Roughly similar to flying R/C airplanes and then building your own.

 

[unklekippy]

It's NOT a concern at all to those who have made the commitment and expense to reload and do so safely and responsibly, and reap the rewards. Reloading is not to be taken up as a chore, purely regarded as a a money saving task to be able to shoot more. It is a serious undertaking as an extension of your interest in shooting and becomes an integral part of such, as well as a science and hobby at the same time. Roughly similar to flying R/C airplanes and then building your own.

I don't know. Have you ever sat down to expand the mouths on 10,000 .357 cases? That can be a chore sometimes. Still, I love it.

 

[Certaindeaf]

A lot a guys will say yea, 10,004-5 strokes on the press handle yields 10,000 completed rounds. I hear you though.

 

[unklekippy]

A lot of people use a single stage press, I'd be willing to bet over 50%. At that rate, 30,000 strokes equals 10,000 rounds. Buying a Dillon can take a while to pay for itself. A Hornady AP would be the way to go in my opinion.

 

[FateOne]

BiMart on 4th plain in Vanc has Remington .22lr HP on the shelf
for $18.97 for 525 with 3 more left. So under $20 on the shelf is happening.

 

[Certaindeaf]

A lot of people use a single stage press, I'd be willing to bet over 50%. At that rate, 30,000 strokes equals 10,000 rounds. Buying a Dillon can take a while to pay for itself. A Hornady AP would be the way to go in my opinion.

Don't forget the precious Factory Crimp die.. let's make it an even 40,000. yuk

 

[JohnH]

Buying a Dillon can take a while to pay for itself.

I wouldn't look at it from an ROI standpoint.
I always tell people they need to look at their reloading equipment as a liquid asset no different than any firearm they may own.
If you buy good quality equipment and take care of it, that equipment will hold it's value or even appreciate.
I love it every 12-18 months when Dillon has a price increase as everything blue I own goes up in value!

 

[Modly]

Sorry but you are clueless.

I personally do not have the money to afford ballistics gelatin to work my carry loads up with.

I've loaded quite a few rounds over the last few years, but I still keep proven cartridges that are suitable by FBI standards in my carry pistol, because I know that I can't test my own properly.

 

[gunnoob75]

I personally do not have the money to afford ballistics gelatin to work my carry loads up with.

What? This is meaningless.

You do not need ballistics gelatin. The information is freely available as to what threshhold (FPS) a bullet functions (Expands/deforms/Coefficient) at it's highest performance.

 

[AMProducts]

A question.. why don't we as a group get together and invest in the equipment and supplies needed to simply make our own. Sort of like a farmer's co-op?

Organize it as a group... each person buys a share of ammo and when the ammo is produced it gets distributed based on share purchased.


Seriously... farmer's co-ops have been around for more than a few years and they work great. you get quality produce at a good price and you create a supply untainted by jackassery.

If we as a group organized and bought enough swaging kits, molds, powder (in bulk) lead smelters, etc, and did it in quantity and flat out refused to sell it to the gov't then we could supply a big demand and maybe turn a profit at the same time? Sure the start up costs would be a little high... but get a bunch of us together for a few weekends... cranking out bullets by the thousands... it could fix the issue right there. I mean honestly... how do you think the pioneers got their bullets? They certainly didn't buy them from mega manufacturers. Do the same now... and tell Obama and the feds to go screw themselves.

Here's the problem... you don't understand scale. I have started what could be loosely called a confederation for ammunition production. Problem is, we don't manufacture by the thousand, we manufacture by the millions. Unless your organization is of sufficient scale, you will never recoup your tooling costs, and you must have a very high level of participation to get anything done. We pay 1/3 what retail customers do for powder, but we order by the truckload, but sometimes that isn't enough to guarantee supply.

Supply isn't short right now, demand is high.

 

[Modly]

What? This is meaningless.

You do not need ballistics gelatin. The information is freely available as to what threshhold (FPS) a bullet functions (Expands/deforms/Coefficient) at it's highest performance.

That's like saying I should trust your load data without working it up.

If I can't verify the function, it's because it's not important enough. I'm not willing to take that bet if somebody is coming after me, and I need him stopped.

 

[WhyteCheddar]

Economy of scale is good.
Centralizing production, in a hostile environment not so good.
Not saying the idea is without merit. Keeping production scattered around makes it tough for any entity to quash production. That keeps costs up but may be necessary for survival at some point.
Still may be a good idea but you have to weigh all possibilities before undertaking a serious investment like this.

 

[deadshot2]

That's like saying I should trust your load data without working it up.

If I can't verify the function, it's because it's not important enough. I'm not willing to take that bet if somebody is coming after me, and I need him stopped.

Testing ammo is a strange thing. All it really does is prove that the round you just fired worked as desired. There is always a failure rate. No matter how small it is, you can't be sure that even after 50,000 rounds successfully tested, the next one won't fail. Who knows, it could even be the one in your carry weapon that day you need it.

If one loads for a personal carry weapon, and uses known components and proper procedures they have just as good a chance of success as that factory load. Perhaps even better as the hand load has been 100% inspected throughout the process. Factory ammo is merely "sampled" along the production line for QC.

 

[Modly]

Testing ammo is a strange thing. All it really does is prove that the round you just fired worked as desired. There is always a failure rate. No matter how small it is, you can't be sure that even after 50,000 rounds successfully tested, the next one won't fail. Who knows, it could even be the one in your carry weapon that day you need it.

If one loads for a personal carry weapon, and uses known components and proper procedures they have just as good a chance of success as that factory load. Perhaps even better as the hand load has been 100% inspected throughout the process. Factory ammo is merely "sampled" along the production line for QC.

Failure rate is different from what I am suggesting though. A manufacturer might say their bullets expand between X fps and Y fps... But unless I test them to verify that they expand in a way I want, I'm not going to blindly trust that they will open up.

For secondary ammo, I'll roll with it, but as my first few shots available to handle whatever situation I might end up in, I want something that has been tested repeatedly by more than one source that can tell me what it will do when it comes out of a barrel.

 

[deadshot2]

If you feel the need to test, then test away. Just don't forget to test under all possible conditions. It's not just testing by shooting into a block of "gel" but you need to test with all potential intermediate barriers as well. A leather, Denim, or heavy twill, jacket over the gel, one test for each, is going to be necessary if one feels the need to be that anal.

Why not just buy a known product like the Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point and load them to the same speed as Speer loads their factory ammo. Don't waste your money on Ballistic Gel, invest in a reliable Chronograph.

BTW, same holds true for "bullet expansion" as what I pointed out earlier. You may have ten's of thousands of bullets that expand as presented by the manufacturer---------then all of a sudden one doesn't. How will you ever know it won't be that one you'll fire next.

If you like to play around with testing, great. Knock yourself out.

For most it's just a waste of time trying to duplicate work done by others with better facilities and resources.

As for insuring that the ammo you are carrying will be effective, there is never a guarantee of that, even with factory ammo. Some attackers can be stopped with a .22LR and others aren't stopped even with 7 rounds of .45 cal 230 gr HP's in their body.