SHORTAGE NOT ENDING ANYTIME SOON.

[U201491]

Bullet ‘health’ fears dry up ammo supplies

Bullet ?health? fears dry up ammo supplies

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[Stevenav]

A question.. why don't we as a group get together and invest in the equipment and supplies needed to simply make our own. Sort of like a farmer's co-op?

Organize it as a group... each person buys a share of ammo and when the ammo is produced it gets distributed based on share purchased.


Seriously... farmer's co-ops have been around for more than a few years and they work great. you get quality produce at a good price and you create a supply untainted by jackassery.

If we as a group organized and bought enough swaging kits, molds, powder (in bulk) lead smelters, etc, and did it in quantity and flat out refused to sell it to the gov't then we could supply a big demand and maybe turn a profit at the same time? Sure the start up costs would be a little high... but get a bunch of us together for a few weekends... cranking out bullets by the thousands... it could fix the issue right there. I mean honestly... how do you think the pioneers got their bullets? They certainly didn't buy them from mega manufacturers. Do the same now... and tell Obama and the feds to go screw themselves.

 

[Mark W.]

A question.. why don't we as a group get together and invest in the equipment and supplies needed to simply make our own. Sort of like a farmer's co-op?

Organize it as a group... each person buys a share of ammo and when the ammo is produced it gets distributed based on share purchased.


Seriously... farmer's co-ops have been around for more than a few years and they work great. you get quality produce at a good price and you create a supply untainted by jackassery.

If we as a group organized and bought enough swaging kits, molds, powder (in bulk) lead smelters, etc, and did it in quantity and flat out refused to sell it to the gov't then we could supply a big demand and maybe turn a profit at the same time? Sure the start up costs would be a little high... but get a bunch of us together for a few weekends... cranking out bullets by the thousands... it could fix the issue right there. I mean honestly... how do you think the pioneers got their bullets? They certainly didn't buy them from mega manufacturers. Do the same now... and tell Obama and the feds to go screw themselves.

Big difference between casting lead balls and manufacturing 100's of calibers of centerfire ammo.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Assume individual responsibility. Back in the old, old days, everybody reloaded. Most every gun was sold with a mold. Back in just the old days, most all clubs, agencies, etc., reloaded for that/their concern.
A mold and a set of dies doesn't cost that much for a lifetime of service.

 

[etrain16]

Assume individual responsibility. Back in the old, old days, everybody reloaded. Most every gun was sold with a mold. Back in just the old days, most all clubs, agencies, etc., reloaded for that/their concern.
A mold and a set of dies doesn't cost that much for a lifetime of service.

That may be the case, but when it comes to something like my carry gun, I like the reliability and consistency of a commercial load. You also run the risk of damaging the gun or voiding your warranty if you use reloads. It that's not a concern to someone, then it's not a bad thought.

 

[Stevenav]

Who said anything about casting led balls?
how about this?
<broken link removed>

see, bullet molds for some very common calibers

There are also dies and kits out there for swagging bullets if you want centerfire rounds that are jacketed. Lets say that we as a group were to buy say 5 sets of dies per person. Set up say something like a couple of these <broken link removed> a number of presses, get molds for the bullets set up runs of rounds and sell them to finance enlarging the operation, buying bigger furnaces for bullets, bigger cast molds, buying powder in bulk, even find out how to make our own primers and cartridges... we could arrive at a place where a viable co-op would be more than just possible.. it could become a genuine business meeting a demand in a market that is starving for more ammo.

I'll further bet that with a bit of time some of the more technically skilled (in chemistry) could come up with ways to produce smokeless powder in varieties that match with established ones. The chemistry is not rocket science here... the internet provides extensive access to books that would allow precisely this.


Me I know how to do autocad and mold making... A little access to a cnc machine and I could produce bullet molds of whatever design you need.

And here's the thing... Other people out there have done precisely this... so it's not like it's impossible. Hornady for example had to start somewhere.

All the companies that we have been relying on and which are now failing to provide us with what we want... well they started somewhere. They didn't just spring into existence fully formed. They started out small, learned how to do what they do, and improved on it. The thing is we could do the same and learn from their mistakes and successes.

The idea is that if you put enough people together who know how to do things... you can get things done. You just have to get off your butt and do it.

There is nothing preventing something like this from happening except people saying you can't do it and other people listening to them.

I'll bet that someone on this forum could tell us precisely how to make primers for example, and not crappy ones either. I'm betting someone here knows how to gt the raw materials, combine them in the correct manner to produce the ignitition material... and how to make each and every part of one from cradle to grave. So why not cut the cord and figure out how to do it. It could start with reloading and end with a company producing ammo and turning a big profit. Just saying.

The market is clearly there... and noone is expecting that if this shortage ends tomorrow that the ammo prices are going to drop for a long long time. Capacity is maxed and still not meeting demand by a long shot. .

 

[Stevenav]

What's the difference between a factory load and a single person hand load? Simple. a factory uses mass production and high precision equipment that a single person cannot generally afford. A group of people however... they could afford it and produce ammo that matches factory spec ammo.

It's easy to say... "we can't do it" and nothing happens.

It's hard to say... "well if they did it... so can we" because the first requires no work... and the 2nd requires commitment and an effort to try. Just saying. Where's the american spirit and pride that we all profess to have?

 

[oknow]

That may be the case, but when it comes to something like my carry gun, I like the reliability and consistency of a commercial load. You also run the risk of damaging the gun or voiding your warranty if you use reloads. It that's not a concern to someone, then it's not a bad thought.

You will get better consistency with reloads Providing you pay attention to what you're doing Then with commercial grade ammo

 

[cookie]

I have been reloading since 1976 and 99.99% of my shooting has been with my reloads . I shoot probably 2 to 4 thousand rounds per year in various pistol and rifle calibers without any reliability problems.

 

[Certaindeaf]

It's easy to see if your handloads have an actual flash hole, powder and an anvil and compound in the primer.. not so much with a factory load.. unless you have X-Ray vision.
Reliable indeed. feh

 

[Stevenav]

Oh, forgot to mention something... I recently took a few 5.7x28 rounds apart and measured the powder for each. I was shocked that they varied in their powder weights by as much at +-15% or more. So factory ammo... not as "consistent" as you might think... especially if such is the case with as finicky a round as the 5.7x28 eh?

 

[2506]

It's one thing to buy ammo off the shelf. It's an entirely different thing to accept a box of reloads from someone I don't know. Personally, if I don't know you, haven't visited your reloading bench, seen you reload, how you store your equipment and components, haven't watched your reloading process--I will graciously accept your reloads and thank you for the time and trouble but they will never be used in any of my firearms. YMMV.

 

[oknow]

It's one thing to buy ammo off the shelf. It's an entirely different thing to accept a box of reloads from someone I don't know. Personally, if I don't know you, haven't visited your reloading bench, seen you reload, how you store your equipment and components, haven't watched your reloading process--I will graciously accept your reloads and thank you for the time and trouble but they will never be used in any of my firearms. YMMV.

why take them in the first place then instead of saying thank's but no thank's

 

[XSubSailor]

What's the difference between a factory load and a single person hand load? Simple. a factory uses mass production and high precision equipment that a single person cannot generally afford. A group of people however... they could afford it and produce ammo that matches factory spec ammo.

I'd argue that my reloads consistently exceed the reliability and accuracy of factory ammo which is manufactured with compromise in mind to fire and function in as many firearms as possible. My reloads are manufactured to produce the greatest accuracy, effectiveness, and reliability in whatever firearm(s) I choose. My tolerance are always tighter than the manufacturer's and more reliable...especially in match barrels.

 

[Stevenav]

To be honest I was not saying that these should be some half assed hillbilly rounds done on a crowded and contaminated bench. I'm talking about rounds done at high standards in an organized and controlled environment and with Quality checks and random samplings of rounds to verify standardization.

If a cooperative for ammo was created members would be able to see and help with the production of the ammunition and thus know precisely what level of quality was employed

 

[Smiddy]

I like the outside the box thinking! However farming co-ops haven't worked out well at all. The horror stories go on and on. Most people who get involved end up paying double, triple, quadruple, or many times only getting 1/2, 1/3 or not receiving any of what they were promised at all. Most likely because they are all ran by lazy hippies. No doubt a NWF crew could run a co-op and actually supply the promised quantities.

 

[Stevenav]

Thanks smiddy..

It's just that I keep hearing people complaining that they cant get a lot of reloading supplies themselves because the hazard costs are so high for a smaller order. So why not do it as a co-op. Throw together a laundry list as a group, everyone pays up, and the designated buyer Buys a large quantity of powder for example for the co-op to share the expense and get volume deals too. And the same would be true for things like primers, and other supplies. Isn't this the idea behind costco... that membership gives you more buying power to get better deals in bulk.

I mean people used to make their own bullets and fill their own cartridges for generations... I see nothing that could genuinely stop a co-op from working in this regard. Have each person who takes part have to agree to donate hours and money to it (hours setting up shop, cleaning, or doing the work of casting bullets, swagging, prepping materials, measuring out loads, or whatever is needed.

I know I'd do it. The question is... what would a proper ammo shop require if we took it up several notches from home reloader level to a shop where we could produce large quantities of rounds in short spans of time?
A lead melting, dipping, and mold shop definitely with hoods, respirators, and forge work equipment for safety.
A set of molds and dies for casting and swagging bullets.
An industrial powder storage facility with fire suppression equipment.
a priming station with good equipment
A brass cleaning and prepping station for large trays of brass.
Loading and storage areas with suitable safety equipment.

Just thinking outloud... but as a group this could maybe help in all those ways and everyone could definitely learn best practices from each other. Could greatly improve loading skills.

 

[unklekippy]

I do everything I can, even cast new bullets out of sifted lead. I simply could not throw in with strangers and hope for the best. Once you have purchased the essentials, all you really need is powder, primers and an alloy source. I have some cases that I have used well over 30 times and have re-cast as much alloy as possible. It is amazing how much money you can save. My most common caliber is .38spl/.357mag and I fire about 4,000 155 gr. SWC's a year in just that caliber. On that scale, I must get the most bang for my buck or reduce my shooting. I have no intention of reducing my round count.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I think most reloaders are pretty happy with the way they already do it.
Doing a group buy can/could help a lot of people that don't/didn't look down the road or have a couple-three hundred dollars.
It's about $30 for hazmat/shipping or so to ship around 30-50 pounds.. I forget.

 

[Trailboss]

Have each person who takes part have to agree to donate hours and money to it (hours setting up shop, cleaning, or doing the work of casting bullets, swagging, prepping materials, measuring out loads, or whatever is needed.

I don't like saying this, but in this age where folks refuse to take personal responsibility and where law suits are common place, I just don't see it working. Some butt hole will shoot himself in the foot and then sue the group because they shouldn't have provided him ammo, and a jury will agree.