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Short barreled shotgun with silver soldered flash hider - legal length?

Discussion in 'Rifle Discussion' started by The Heretic, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    So - check my assumption here.

    If I take an 18+ inch shotgun barrel, have it cut to a shorter length, then have the length restored to a legal length (18+ inches) by adding a silver soldered flash hider, comp or muzzle brake and put that back on the shotgun (which would be 26+ inches overall) - this is a legal non-NFA shotgun right?

    I know people do this with short barreled rifles all the time, I am just checking here to make sure I am not missing anything.

    Thanks.
     
    Joe13 likes this.
  2. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Great question!

    If I had to cut mine shorter then 18" then that would be a nice option.
     
  3. Norm0931

    Norm0931 Hillsboro, OR Sgt. Sheep Silver Vendor 2016 Volunteer

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    Is it the ONLY barrel you have for your shotgun? The difference with rifles is that the barrel is manufactured pre-install. To be totally on the up and up you would need to buy a new barrel that has not previously been on your shotgun and then have the barrel welded. Also, the device would need to be pinned in addition to being welded to be legal.

    NFA is not really an area where you want to be in the shady grey area. The area tends to be associated with prison or death. Mess around with cutting down shotgun barrels and you could end up like Randy Weaver.
     
  4. Mark W.

    Mark W. Silverton, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    If you drop a dowel down the barrel to rest against the closed bolt and the dowel measures 18" to the edge of the muzzle it is legal.

    As to HARD (read high temp) Silver Solder (technically Silver Brazing) also requiring a pin I do not know. I do know you would be pretty slick to pin anything to the end of a shotgun barrel as thin as the tube is.
     
  5. Swedish K

    Swedish K SW Washington Moderator Staff Member

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    Tend to agree that I wouldn't cut it down just to add the length back - far better to have the existing barrel ported or have flash hider type cuts milled into it (maybe have a sleeve machined to slide over and weld it in place before milling the flash hider cuts into it... at least that way there is zero chance you get in trouble for a SBS...
     
  6. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it matters whether the barrel has been on your shotgun or not before - how could that possibly have any impact legally? As long as the barrel isn't ever on the shotgun while being shorter than a legal length, a person should be fine (yes, I know about "constructive possession" - I am talking about taking the barrel off the shotgun and having the barrel shortened, modified and then returned to my possession, so I don't think "constructive possession" applies here).

    Pinned vs. soldered - on further googling, apparently the BATF considers "silver soldering" below a certain temp (1200*F ?) to not be permanent - they prefer a blind pin or TIG welding to be "permanent". Apparently a welded pin is preferred but not required as long as the pin cannot be easily removed.

    That anything that can be easily removed with a "common hand tool" such as a wrench without rendering the barrel unusable is not acceptable. So silver solder alone, without a pin - if above a certain temp - would be legal.

    As for preferences as to whether a hider, comp, etc. or machining those into the existing barrel - that is a matter of taste/preference, and outside the scope of this thread. I was asking about the legality, not about taste or functionaly.

    Some people want different kinds of devices, etc. - this is a combat pump shotgun meant for home defense only, not something that could easily be converted to a sporting shotgun. I can easily and inexpensively replace the barrel if I don't like the results, but it is already a very short shotgun (just over 26") and I don't want to add any length to it, but I do want a certain device on the end of it.

    I just want to stay legal naturally, and I was wondering if there was anything unique or quirky in the law about shotgun barrels and muzzle end devices. You see a lot of this kind of thing discussed/sold/bought for AR rifles, but I rarely see it discussed to shotguns.

    Conclusion: Apparently there is nothing different legally about this aspect of shortening a shotgun barrel from shortening a rifle barrel - except that legal lengths.

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2014
  7. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I see this quoted often, but haven't seen the official cite on any authoritative website (ATF, etc.):

     
  8. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    As for appearance, after silver soldering, I would have the whole shotgun parkerized or otherwise refinished.
     
    Qjay likes this.
  9. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.

    http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf
     
  10. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I would talk to Tornado Technologies in Hillsboro about your project. See what they can recommend.
     
    The Heretic likes this.
  11. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Thanks
     
  12. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I trust their workmanship. It's not cheap, but you won't be disappointed.
     
  13. Norm0931

    Norm0931 Hillsboro, OR Sgt. Sheep Silver Vendor 2016 Volunteer

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    Check their workload. I gave them my Rem 700 to thread the barrel in early Feb and ended up picking it up in May without it ever being worked on. They told me 2 weeks when I dropped it off.
     
  14. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Thanks.

    I am not too worried about how long it takes.
     
  15. drewp

    drewp 503pdx Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    since the convo went in the direction of places to go have work done, I would suggest revelation arms in aloha/Hillsboro...

    im just curious why you would want any kind of muzzle brake/ hider etc on a shotgun, do they give a big flash or are you trying to reduce muzzle flip...and which brake/hider would you possiblly use being the barrels are generally thin and have a big opening/inside diameter...im really wondering and looking forward to learning something new.
     
  16. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    How about the duckbill attachment that was use in Vietnam by it's first actual combat user,
    Chief James "Patches" Watson.


    upload_2014-8-2_22-35-30.jpeg
     
  17. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure yet which muzzle attachment I would use.

    The use case for the shotgun would be in my house or around outside (I live on 20 forested acres, but there are houses that are well within range of a rifle or handgun) and possibly at night. I would also want to attach a good flashlight and maybe a laser combo - like the Surefire.

    So it would probably be a flash hider - if it was effective - to tame any flash in the dark.

    This particular shotgun is a bullpup Mossberg:

    Mossberg%20500%20Bullpup.jpg

    I have removed the foregrip - I didn't like it. I also disable the grip safety.

    It is heavy so recoil is moderate. I would probably go with an extended mag, which may or may not mean the barrel would be longer. If I stick with the current mag (6 shot IIRC), then I would not want the barrel to be any longer - the whole idea of a bullpup being its short length.

    I usually take either a semi-auto or revolver and powerful compact flashlight out when looking to see what is wandering around outside setting off my motion detector lights, but I can foresee scenarios where I might want to also take something more powerful.

    Usually it is just a neighbors dog, but we have had black bear and cougar wander through too. Not that I would shoot them just for that, but if they were surprised...

    Also, neighbors sometimes put out their garbage cans the night before collection day (although they are pretty good about not doing that - in the winter they do it in the morning when it is dark). Usually we have had no problems with bears and garbage, but that could change.

    We have had no problems with tweakers, but you never know, and it is best to be prepared.

    This is not something I have to do right away - I just have been wanting to mod the shotgun to make it a bit more useful for its intended purpose. I got it a long time ago for about $300 so I can afford to put some mods on it. I have looked at the KSG but I am not sold on its reputation (not a big fan of Kel-Tec), and so far the other bullpup shotguns available here don't have a good rep either.

    Now if Benelli would make a bullpup M3 Super 90, that I would buy.
     
  18. dwaineshort

    dwaineshort Vancouver WA Active Member

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    There's many videos and articles that show shotgun rounds can travel through more walls then .223. That's why I went with a Tavor for my home defense gun.
     
  19. Qjay

    Qjay Vancouver, not BC, Washington, not DC Active Member

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    There are a lot of alternatives when it comes to home defense. I want something that is guaranteed to go "Bang" when I need it to, and which will do what is needed. Neither I, nor my wife, would pull a trigger on something that can't be clearly identified as an intruder, which is why we like lights, and lots of them, when it comes to home defense.
    Since you are looking at indoor and outdoor, I do particularly like the Mossberg with the flash hider you showed and described, however, I would suggest you may want to look at your local state, county, and municipal laws with an eye toward trouble from those angles. Most of the time there won't be any problem in Oregon, but you'd be shocked what does come up sometimes.

    That said, if the muzzle brake is federally satisfactory, then I would go with it, unless it is a clear violation of more local regs.
     
  20. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Yes, agreed, but...

    I am single and live alone. I live on 20 forested acres. The shotgun isn't for in home defense clearing the house anyway (I probably wouldn't try to clear the house anyway) - although I could envision that if someone was trying to break into the house I might use it from behind cover.

    No, this is primarily for a use case where I may have to go outside. Unlikely and not always advised, it would usually be better to call the cops, but there are situations out here in the countryside where you have to take care of things yourself sometimes as it takes even longer for law enforcement to arrive, if they ever do (in some situations such as when we are snowed in, they may not be able to get up here on the mountain at all, and if they do, it might take hours).

    Most of the time, I just put one of my handguns in a holster and in the small of my back, when I go investigate a noise outside.

    Such as the other day I was woken up at 6 AM to the noise of a chain saw that seemed to be coming from the backside of my property. When you have several hundred thousand dollars worth of timber you keep an eye on it - people do come up and cut down live valuable trees for firewood, or even lumber (rarer because it requires heavy equipment). It turns out the chain saw was coming from farther away than I thought and was nowhere near my property - usually I can barely hear them if at all with my bad hearing, which is why I thought it was much closer.

    Also, we have bears and cougars up here. I don't believe in hunting predators, and I don't shoot them just because they wander across my property (I am think that maybe a particular bear does from time to time from the scat I have seen), but at the same time, if I am going out after dark to investigate a noise, maybe I want something a little more potent than my handgun.

    I do have neighbors, and I don't want rifle or handgun shots reaching their houses or properties - a shotgun with buckshot is less likely to make it through, given the distance and the trees and brush surrounding my house.