SHOOTING SITE IN JEOPARDY! NEEDS YOUR IMMEDIATE ATTENTION!

[Cogs]

The US Forest Service is embarking on some big changes in the Greenwater, WA area. The project may include the possible closure to perhaps one of the safest places to shoot on public land, (as you can see in the photos attached). We need your help to encourage them to consider improving this site and make it into a preferred place for safe and responsible shooting.

This program is called the "Snoquera Project," and you can read about it here: https://www.fs.usda.gov/…/www/nepa/107051_FSPLT3_4292011.pdf

More information is here: Forest Service

The Forest Service is asking for comments on this project between now and June 1st. Please help us by sending your feedback to the Mount Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest Service Staff here: https://cara.ecosystem-management.org/Public//CommentInput?Project=51969

You can read comments posted here: https://cara.ecosystem-management.org/Public//ReadingRoom?Project=51969

The FSR 7013 clearcut is an EXCELLENT shooting area, for these reasons:
- It is very accessible, not too deep in the wilderness and close to the main road.
- It is extremely safe, since all shooting is done into the large, open hillside.
- It has been modified to have a clear firing line, directing fire in the proper direction.

Please encourage them to leave FSR 7013 open to shooting since it is an extremely safe shooting location and other concerns noted can be addressed and reasonably resolved.

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Read More

 

[Cogs]

Here's my comment. I also included the Google Earth map photos.

5-26-18

To the Mount Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest Service Staff and concerned citizens,

RE: Snoquera Landscape Analysis Project, as it pertains to recreational shooting at FSR 7013.

Recreational shooting sports has grown tremendously of the past several years. Many new shooters are anxious to participate in the sport, yet the availability of public shooting ranges are few and far between with long waiting lines to get in. Therefore, we are experiencing a greater use of public land for recreational target shooting.

Experienced shooters know how and where to shoot responsibly and take the steps to prepare for safe and lawful recreation. Our concerns are with those who are inexperienced and unaware of rules, etiquette, ethics and stewardship. They will often shoot at the first available place when entering the forest, although, it may not be a safe place. It is crucial to have a location with quick and easy access that provides all the features to make it easy to shoot in a safe and responsible manner. The FSR 7013 is just that place.

The FRS 7013 dispersed shooting site holds desired qualities that make it a perfect target shooting location. Those quality features, which pertain to public safety and the protection of natural resources, are high earthen berm backstop and the surrounding hills to prevent stray bullets from leaving the site. It is not located near other recreational activity areas and is not near any trails, body of water or out buildings. In addition, it features heavy foliage around the shooting area and hills which helps buffer sound. The orientation of the lanes is obvious to the shooter and provides a safe line of fire direction.

A safe dispersed shooting site like this is hard to find and is in high demand. If it were closed to shooting, we may see more use in undesired areas, a lack of care/ownership/pride for our natural resources, more concerns of shooting in fire hazardous conditions and a host of other problems that come with dispersed shooting sites.

It may be a better option to consider making improvements to this location. The conceptual end in mind would be to improve safety, sanitation, and environmental issues while reducing fire hazard risks. Engage partners and partnerships that support the activity and seek to protect and preserve it. Provide safe and sustainable opportunities for recreational target shooting. These goals would not only improve recreational shooting, but would improve the recreational experience for all who visit our great outdoors by creating a safe and desirable place to shoot.

Respectfully,

Bill Cogley
President
Trash No Land

 

[Cogs]

16 to 25... We're behind. 2 minuet warning bell just rang and we only have till June 1st!

I went through all 4 pages of comments and noted the Yay's and Nay's for FSR 7013.

There are 99 total comments as of right now. Of those 99, 41 have commented on the FSR 7013 issue. 16 comments are in favor of keeping the shooting site and 25 are opposed. (All other comments are pertaining to other issues presented in the project).

Lots of comments being made on their comment form. Most are copy & paste. They include comments like this...

Comments:
Wildfire danger from incendiary target shooting threatens my community, land and home. Greenwater is under serious wildfire threat from incendiary targets routinely shot at by recreational shooters at the FS 7013 location. In 2016, a late night wildfire started by incendiary target shooting at FS 7013 was extinguished by the local fire district. Already this year hundreds of bullet-riddled incendiary targets have been found and documented at this location.

Read 'em and weep. We're not very persuasive at this point! https://cara.ecosystem-management.org/Public//ReadingRoom?Project=51969

Drop a comment of support: https://cara.ecosystem-management.org/Public//CommentInput?Project=51969

 

[Caveman Jim]

Wouldn't you know it they're doing routine maintenance at this moment...
I'll try later on and I will forward this to my son-in-law that lives in Bonney Lake and has lots of shooting friends out that way.

 

[po18guy]

Comment in favor of access made.

 

[Caveman Jim]

The US Forest Service is embarking on some big changes in the Greenwater, WA area. The project may include the possible closure to perhaps one of the safest places to shoot on public land, (as you can see in the photos attached). We need your help to encourage them to consider improving this site and make it into a preferred place for safe and responsible shooting.

This program is called the "Snoquera Project," and you can read about it here: https://www.fs.usda.gov/…/www/nepa/107051_FSPLT3_4292011.pdf

More information is here: Forest Service

The Forest Service is asking for comments on this project between now and June 1st. Please help us by sending your feedback to the Mount Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest Service Staff here: https://cara.ecosystem-management.org/Public//CommentInput…

You can read comments posted here: https://cara.ecosystem-management.org/Public//ReadingRoom?Project=51969

The FSR 7013 clearcut is an EXCELLENT shooting area, for these reasons:
- It is very accessible, not too deep in the wilderness and close to the main road.
- It is extremely safe, since all shooting is done into the large, open hillside.
- It has been modified to have a clear firing line, directing fire in the proper direction.

Please encourage them to leave FSR 7013 open to shooting since it is an extremely safe shooting location and other concerns noted can be addressed and reasonably resolved.

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Bill I cannot get the leave a comment links to open, only the read the letters are working.

 

[po18guy]

Bill I cannot get the leave a comment links to open, only the read the letters are work

Bill I cannot get the leave a comment links to open, only the read the letters are working.

Sometimes, there is a browser incompatibility issue. If you are using MS Windows or Apple Safari, try Google Chrome or Firefox.

 

[Caveman Jim]

I went to the US forest Service & navigated to the Snoquera Project but no electronic link to submitting a comment....

 

[justcuz]

COG, being the suspicious individual i am by nature, me thinks there is mischief afoot and either the USFS' system broke and due to the holiday nobody knows/cares, or their system has been intentionally brought down and again nobody cares.

Might wish to push for added comment days.

[sidebar, suspicious comes from the comment read about town's folk complaining about stray rounds striking buildings in town which now posits USFS' current renovation activities away from environment to highly suggestive politically initiated realm]

What actually precipitated the USFS to initate this activity? Nothing is spur of the moment and is normally years in the planning, especially within this organization. Also where did the funding come from?

 

[Cogs]

I went to the US forest Service & navigated to the Snoquera Project but no electronic link to submitting a comment....

Thanks for letting me know, Jim. You're right, bad link. It was missing the last set of numbers. I edited that and it's now correct in post #1.

Here it is again... https://cara.ecosystem-management.org/Public//CommentInput?Project=51969

 

[Cogs]

COG, being the suspicious individual i am by nature, me thinks there is mischief afoot and either the USFS' system broke and due to the holiday nobody knows/cares, or their system has been intentionally brought down and again nobody cares.

Might wish to push for added comment days.

[sidebar, suspicious comes from the comment read about town's folk complaining about stray rounds striking buildings in town which now posits USFS' current renovation activities away from environment to highly suggestive politically initiated realm]

What actually precipitated the USFS to initate this activity? Nothing is spur of the moment and is normally years in the planning, especially within this organization. Also where did the funding come from?

This has been an issue in the Greenwater area for some time now. It's not confirmed that the stray bullets, or the noise, is coming from the shooting site on the map. There must be other places where people are shooting that are closer to the village and are the primary reason for this move. But since this site is used a lot, they are focused on shutting it down. If they can do that, all the areas around it will be shut down.

I really think there needs to be some concrete evidence that proves the noise and stray bullets are coming from other locations.

Most of the references to stray bullets are complaints and memories of 2-3 years ago. Since then, the top of the hill has been blocked off and they say they have more enforcement there. I don't know if any new stray's have been reported in the last year.

It's funny because the USFS has been real helpful in making this site a good place to shoot. They help and encourage with cleanups, have brought in boulders as a shooting line, put up a kiosk with signage and provided a parking area. I suspect they put this on the plate because of the pressure from the nearby residence and they are getting tired of hearing about it.

 

[Caveman Jim]

Thanks Bill!!!

As one that has been to many cleanups here I can attest to the idiots that do not follow rules and have no common sense.
This is a problem, just like the Clark county rifle range, many people that moved into the area after this thing has been there for many years are complaining about the noise and using fake reports of errant bullets.

 

[Caveman Jim]

Here are my comments

As long time shooters and cleanup participants at Greenwater, I am appalled that those new to the area have any credibility wanting this long-standing recreational activity area shutdown.
Furthermore, this area was here long before all of the out of state people that have infested the area, just like the people who complain to WDFW about the elk that are eating their plants & gardens... They were here first like the shooting areas so get over it.

 

[Cogs]

In the last 24 hrs, we've had 6 new comments about the shooting site issue at the FSR 7013. Of those, 5 new comments are in favor of keeping the shooting site, and only one nay sayer. WE'RE CATCHING UP! Score now at 21 Yay and 26 Nay.

Here's a response for a shooter in favor of keeping it open... (posted today)...

First, I want to thank Martie Schramm and her team at the Forest Service for all of the outstanding work that
they have done in the area, especially in light of all of the opposing viewpoints that they need to consider. It's a tough job, and they do it well.

The FSR 7013 area is an EXTREMELY safe area for recreational shooting, and I strongly encourage you to
keep it open for that purpose. Please reference the attached file, which shows that there are hills between the
shooting line and Crystal River Ranch, which make it IMPOSSIBLE for a bullet to travel from the shooting area
to the residential community. Please do not believe any of the claims that the bullets found in town came from
7013; it is absolutely impossible that this is the case. I have done the math based on ballistic data of various
calibers, and even if a bullet is fired above the hill it will travel far beyond the community. (I'm happy to share
this data if you want to see it.)

I am not questioning that bullets have landed in town; I take the residents at their word on that. However, those bullets have almost certainly come from shooters at higher elevations, shooting irresponsibly without
a proper backstop. Please note that if FSR 7013 is closed to shooting, it will drive MORE shooters to other areas, including those areas that truly are unsafe. This would be unfortunate for everyone, especially the local
residents.

The National Forest is a public treasure, intended for use by all citizens. Local residents have launched an effort to curtail access because they do not want to hear gunfire from their community, even though that gunfire is approximately one mile away and behind hills and foliage; although the gunfire happens regularly, it really is not that loud from the residential area. This is truly a "NIMBY" (Not In My Back Yard) situation.

We must ensure that shooters in the national forest use safe shooting areas, and the FSR 7013 clearcut is
among the safest. The terrain absolutely ensures that bullets do not reach the community, and we must
recognize that FACT, and ensure that the facts trump any made-up claims intended to confuse the issue.

Please keep FSR 7013 open to recreational shooting,for everyone's sake -- including the local residents.

Thank you for all of the good work that you do.

​

Sorry, his notation of where the shooting area is, is not noted on these photos, however, he does have good lines to show where things are situated.

A good letter! It should help a lot!

 

[Kristina]

I will write in this evening (edit: not this evening, I have homework but soon). It would be good for anyone planning to do the same to mention wolf creek and how the safety and cleanliness of the area has improved due to community involvement, along with the partnerships grown and fostered between Trash No Land and state and federal agencies. We have proof that target shooters can be responsible and that areas can be improved to minimize safety issues, so we need to get it out there!

 

[Cogs]

I will write in this evening. It would be good for anyone planning to do the same to mention wolf creek and how the safety and cleanliness of the area has improved due to community involvement, along with the partnerships grown and fostered between Trash No Land and state and federal agencies. We have proof that target shooters can be responsible and that areas can be improved to minimize safety issues, so we need to get it out there!

Love it! Good ideas!

 

[Mister Bisley]

@Cogs It looks like everyone that posted today just copy/pasted someone's comment. I would like to help you with your cause, but as an Orygunian, I don't know much about the area or it's history.

 

[Cogs]

@Cogs It looks like everyone that posted today just copy/pasted someone's comment. I would like to help you with your cause, but as an Orygunian, I don't know much about the area or it's history.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I've never been there, but, have been keeping an eye on what's been going on there for the past couple of years. Some of our Trash No Land members live up in that area and are keeping me up to date on the goings on.

I got to know the area a lot better with Google Maps and can see it's really obvious that this site is a real safe place to shoot. I've seen pics of it and there is a bunch of downed logs and brush that should be cleared, for fire prevention measures, however, not much else needs to be done the make this the perfect... all around safe... place to shoot.

Wish I were there to spend a couple days scouting the area to get a first hand look at what's going on. For now, I trust what others are saying and I see, by the negative comments, the Nay Sayers have nothing solid to back up their claims (and if so, their evidence would be a couple years old or more).

The copy & paste thing is from their home owners organization group(s) and sharing among their various community social media outlets. They must have encouraged the copy/paste thing just to try to flood USFS will their feedback. I see those, recognize the copy/paste, and then just skip over that. I think the FS will do the same. They just don't mean as much if it's a cut & paste.

Thanks for your interest!

 

[Mister Bisley]

I would agree that a copy/pasted for any side should be given less merit. Thanks for all you do bud!

 

[Mister Bisley]

I will write in this evening (edit: not this evening, I have homework but soon). It would be good for anyone planning to do the same to mention wolf creek and how the safety and cleanliness of the area has improved due to community involvement, along with the partnerships grown and fostered between Trash No Land and state and federal agencies. We have proof that target shooters can be responsible and that areas can be improved to minimize safety issues, so we need to get it out there!

I look forward to reading your genius