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Had an accident in the shop today and broke a toe and no one to drive me, I so wanted to be there tonight!!!!
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Shooting in Snoqualmie Forest being Banned
- Thread Starter seattleguy
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Well. We had enough people show up they had to move the meeting outside, however about a 1/4 of them where there to try and close down or reduce shooting in the area. I am just heading home. When I get to a real computer I'll make a more complete report.
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Dayyyyum naysayers, always wanting to take away someone's rights and pleasures!!!Thanks for taking the time to go IM!!!
I am still anti mobile as I type....
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Ok.
I really dont know where to start so I am just going to jump right in the middle.
First off, I am appalled at the information that was brought by the folks who want to shut the forest down to shooters, the biggest problem is not garbage.
One fellow who lives up there and happened to be a retired LEO brought piles of pictures, a box full of small propane cylinders that had been shot close to his home, several of which had "exploded" so obviously where full of fuel.
He said that it was a common occurrence for them to find deer and elk that had been shot and left to rot (like weekly)
There are 700 people who live along the 410 corridor between Enumclaw and Crystal From the 20 or so folks who showed up from up in those parts to try and get shooting shut down most have simply had it with unsafe and asinine shooters. I heard stories about shooters blocking roads and pointing guns at folks who ask them to move. About shooters who where told that they where in a residential area and homes directly behind where they where shooting who basically told the person to F off. Several of the home owners brought bags of bullets they claimed where found on their property.
I want to say most of these folks where not raging anti gunners there to stir up stuff. They seemed like concerned home owners who where fed up with bad behavior. Several came right out and said the pits where not a problem, its the folks who are shooting off 410 not knowing that there are houses everywhere up there (or knowing and not caring) They wanted to try and get people to the pits where it was safer to shoot (not all, but most where reasonable)
There was a "Fudd" who basically said that they just needed to ban assault rifles in the forest, that it was all the black rifles that where the problem.
At first I just wanted to discount the old timer as a closed minded fool, but the truth is he is probably right(not about banning them, but that they are the worst offenders) I doubt very seriously that the "problem" shooters are the guys up sighting in their model 70 or shooting clays. I say that being a person who almost exclusively shoots "modern sporting arms" AKA Black rifles.
The garbage situation is pathetic, but we can do something about that. I dont know what you do about the criminal element who are breaking laws up there with firearms every way imaginable.
The biggest issue is lack of enforcement. There is one LEO Ranger who covers all of the I90 and 410 corridor. He was present, he said he was in the Greenwater area twice a week on average. Not near enough to catch problem shooters in the act.
The ex cop home owner up there (who has lived in or around Greenwater for 60 years) said this has all come about in the last 3-5 years. That its a inrush of inconsiderate, mostly young folks with little common sense and seemingly no regard for pubic land.
I got to say I was really discouraged. I went pumped up with a plan to help fight a garbage problem. What we are faced with is really more of a crime problem. Bad gun owners doing totally stupid and irresponsible things. Most of the folks who showed up against us understood that "we" are not the problem. The issue is no amount of new rules are going to keep the bad shooters from doing what they are doing now. Without boots on the ground its a losing battle.
One of my suggestions was to organize a group, preferably a non profit. Something like "the friends of Greenwater" That would be a point of contact for the public and a continual presence to try and educate and oversee shooters. My understanding is that with the proper paperwork you could set it up so people could do community service and get credit. It seems like a good way to clean up and keep things moving in the right direction. Maybe it could try to make improvements to established shooting areas too.
I dont know. Like I said I was un prepared for the ugly that was presented. My feeling up until this meeting was that 98% of the shooters in the forest where good folks and we had just a few problem children and we would just have to work hard to overcome the damage they do. Much of the info I saw was not presented at the meeting but was shown to me personally by the retired LEO guy. He did not have enough floor time to really give his speech, If he would have I think it would have hurt us even farther. I know there are anti gun folks who would make up stuff just to shut us down, this guy was a gun owner, hunter and retired cop. He just wants to keep people from shooting at his family and friends homes.
I know I sound like I am siding with the wrong team.... Im not. But I am disgusted the bad element in the shooting community. I had no idea. What these guys where describing was a war zone in there back yard. Id be pissed too.
What can we do? We need to do something, stand up and show the community that most of us are good, upstanding folks who are safe and sane but I think its going to be really tough when there will always be the few who simply are rotten people. Those idiots will always be the ones who get the attention.
I should also say I think the Forest Service is on our side. The head honcho came right out and said that their view was the land was there for every one and that shooting in the forest was a valid and established use.
I really dont know where to start so I am just going to jump right in the middle.
First off, I am appalled at the information that was brought by the folks who want to shut the forest down to shooters, the biggest problem is not garbage.
One fellow who lives up there and happened to be a retired LEO brought piles of pictures, a box full of small propane cylinders that had been shot close to his home, several of which had "exploded" so obviously where full of fuel.
He said that it was a common occurrence for them to find deer and elk that had been shot and left to rot (like weekly)
There are 700 people who live along the 410 corridor between Enumclaw and Crystal From the 20 or so folks who showed up from up in those parts to try and get shooting shut down most have simply had it with unsafe and asinine shooters. I heard stories about shooters blocking roads and pointing guns at folks who ask them to move. About shooters who where told that they where in a residential area and homes directly behind where they where shooting who basically told the person to F off. Several of the home owners brought bags of bullets they claimed where found on their property.
I want to say most of these folks where not raging anti gunners there to stir up stuff. They seemed like concerned home owners who where fed up with bad behavior. Several came right out and said the pits where not a problem, its the folks who are shooting off 410 not knowing that there are houses everywhere up there (or knowing and not caring) They wanted to try and get people to the pits where it was safer to shoot (not all, but most where reasonable)
There was a "Fudd" who basically said that they just needed to ban assault rifles in the forest, that it was all the black rifles that where the problem.
At first I just wanted to discount the old timer as a closed minded fool, but the truth is he is probably right(not about banning them, but that they are the worst offenders) I doubt very seriously that the "problem" shooters are the guys up sighting in their model 70 or shooting clays. I say that being a person who almost exclusively shoots "modern sporting arms" AKA Black rifles.
The garbage situation is pathetic, but we can do something about that. I dont know what you do about the criminal element who are breaking laws up there with firearms every way imaginable.
The biggest issue is lack of enforcement. There is one LEO Ranger who covers all of the I90 and 410 corridor. He was present, he said he was in the Greenwater area twice a week on average. Not near enough to catch problem shooters in the act.
The ex cop home owner up there (who has lived in or around Greenwater for 60 years) said this has all come about in the last 3-5 years. That its a inrush of inconsiderate, mostly young folks with little common sense and seemingly no regard for pubic land.
I got to say I was really discouraged. I went pumped up with a plan to help fight a garbage problem. What we are faced with is really more of a crime problem. Bad gun owners doing totally stupid and irresponsible things. Most of the folks who showed up against us understood that "we" are not the problem. The issue is no amount of new rules are going to keep the bad shooters from doing what they are doing now. Without boots on the ground its a losing battle.
One of my suggestions was to organize a group, preferably a non profit. Something like "the friends of Greenwater" That would be a point of contact for the public and a continual presence to try and educate and oversee shooters. My understanding is that with the proper paperwork you could set it up so people could do community service and get credit. It seems like a good way to clean up and keep things moving in the right direction. Maybe it could try to make improvements to established shooting areas too.
I dont know. Like I said I was un prepared for the ugly that was presented. My feeling up until this meeting was that 98% of the shooters in the forest where good folks and we had just a few problem children and we would just have to work hard to overcome the damage they do. Much of the info I saw was not presented at the meeting but was shown to me personally by the retired LEO guy. He did not have enough floor time to really give his speech, If he would have I think it would have hurt us even farther. I know there are anti gun folks who would make up stuff just to shut us down, this guy was a gun owner, hunter and retired cop. He just wants to keep people from shooting at his family and friends homes.
I know I sound like I am siding with the wrong team.... Im not. But I am disgusted the bad element in the shooting community. I had no idea. What these guys where describing was a war zone in there back yard. Id be pissed too.
What can we do? We need to do something, stand up and show the community that most of us are good, upstanding folks who are safe and sane but I think its going to be really tough when there will always be the few who simply are rotten people. Those idiots will always be the ones who get the attention.
I should also say I think the Forest Service is on our side. The head honcho came right out and said that their view was the land was there for every one and that shooting in the forest was a valid and established use.
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it was pretty obvious many of the homeowners feel desperate. one of the women there was borderline hysterical.
the one thing they desperately wanted, but did not hear, was a plan for immediate shutdown of all shooting - e.g. tomorrow. i am sure they were very disappointed in that. the strong showing of people is probably going to make them feel more like the odds are stacked against them. they may feel even more desperate now as a result.
i do feel the homeowners have very legitimate complaints -- if there is unsafe shooting, it needs to be shutdown. lack of LEO coverage makes it obvious that banning won't accomplish anything -- people are already breaking the law and there is no enforcement. the only way to prevent the outright unsafe shooting into houses is to physically prevent access to those sites. putting posts / bollards to block vehicles was one proposal.
it was also interesting to hear one of the rangers say that they are currently doing work to clean up and manage the wenas shooting site -- closing some of the dangerous sites and installing concrete benches at one of them. anyone know more about that?
the one thing they desperately wanted, but did not hear, was a plan for immediate shutdown of all shooting - e.g. tomorrow. i am sure they were very disappointed in that. the strong showing of people is probably going to make them feel more like the odds are stacked against them. they may feel even more desperate now as a result.
i do feel the homeowners have very legitimate complaints -- if there is unsafe shooting, it needs to be shutdown. lack of LEO coverage makes it obvious that banning won't accomplish anything -- people are already breaking the law and there is no enforcement. the only way to prevent the outright unsafe shooting into houses is to physically prevent access to those sites. putting posts / bollards to block vehicles was one proposal.
it was also interesting to hear one of the rangers say that they are currently doing work to clean up and manage the wenas shooting site -- closing some of the dangerous sites and installing concrete benches at one of them. anyone know more about that?
setting up a brand new nonprofit can be pretty hard -- you are basically creating a corporation with bylaws and board members and the like. there is a lot of overhead and potential cost. it may be easier to hang a 'friends of greenwater' nonprofit off an existing nonprofit group like SAF or NRA.
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the thing that struck me is that there is really not much we as a group of responsible shooters can do to curtail what is basically criminal activity up there. I went prepared to work on a trash problem. What it seems like there is is a more general idiot problem. Trash we can deal with. A handful of inconsiderate folks who leave behind there targets we could work hard and just clean up after (shouldn't have to, but if its the price to pay for keeping the woods open to shooting so be it)
If the home owners are to be believed, the issues are more about folks shooting down in the residential areas and spots with no or insignificant backstops. The story's some told where down right scary. I think there where a number of simply anti gun folks there who just dont want guns in the forest. I also felt like there where some real folks who just wanted to come up with solutions to keep people from shooting around their homes. I dont think any of us doubt there are some bad examples who make us all look bad. The problem is in many of their minds one bad shooter up there is plenty of reason to shut down the whole area. More than one person brought up emergency closure of the area. The more I think about this the less sense it makes. If you have a road that all of a sudden has a bunch of crazy/criminal drivers and accidents you dont close the road, You increase LEO presence to deal with the problem people. That is what we really need up there is enforcement of existing regulation
If the home owners are to be believed, the issues are more about folks shooting down in the residential areas and spots with no or insignificant backstops. The story's some told where down right scary. I think there where a number of simply anti gun folks there who just dont want guns in the forest. I also felt like there where some real folks who just wanted to come up with solutions to keep people from shooting around their homes. I dont think any of us doubt there are some bad examples who make us all look bad. The problem is in many of their minds one bad shooter up there is plenty of reason to shut down the whole area. More than one person brought up emergency closure of the area. The more I think about this the less sense it makes. If you have a road that all of a sudden has a bunch of crazy/criminal drivers and accidents you dont close the road, You increase LEO presence to deal with the problem people. That is what we really need up there is enforcement of existing regulation
IronMonster, I cut out most of your post because it was absolutely correct. The part I am quoting needs a bit of clarification, I believe.
The person speaking was WA State Representative Chris Hurst (D). While he has legitimate complaints, he was also inflating some of his claims.
For example, he claimed the propane cylinders were all exploded, where you could plainly see that it was expanding bullets that opened the cylinders, no more "explosion" than a watermelon when hit with a high velocity bullet. Nonetheless, stupid and dangerous practices.
Next, Mr. Hurst claimed lead bullets were polluting the soil to upwards of 300 parts per million. I call B.S. First, how does he know what the natural levels of lead were previous to any shooting? 2nd, I seriously doubt his ability to accurately measure it, and his claimed reading of 300PPM.
Mr. Hurst also stated that everyone was using steel core bullets and causing a fire danger. Well, you can create fire danger in many ways, but steel core bullets are probably a minor consideration.
I bring these points out not to call into doubt your report, but to expose Mr. Hurst's claims to the light of truth and fact.
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I have no doubt some of the claims made are overblown, nor I am not taking everything stated as truth. However I know for a fact there are shooters up there who are committing criminal acts on a regular basis. I have seen them with my own eyes. We have a family cabin just across from the Dalles camp ground. I have seen similar things. And at least one of those propane cans was turned inside out, that doesn't happen shooting at an empty can.
I think rather than argue about how big of lies the other side is putting forward we need to focus on things we know need attention. We know there are people shooting where they shouldn't. We know the trash left behind is sickening. We know there is no enforcement of existing regulations.
The anti's making inflated claims don't discount the fact we have a real problem. There is enough truth that we are damed anyway.
I think rather than argue about how big of lies the other side is putting forward we need to focus on things we know need attention. We know there are people shooting where they shouldn't. We know the trash left behind is sickening. We know there is no enforcement of existing regulations.
The anti's making inflated claims don't discount the fact we have a real problem. There is enough truth that we are damed anyway.
I wouldn't give up so easily...."we are damed (damned?) anyway." It appeared to me from the audience last night that we as shooters have a solid majority on our side.
And I do feel it is important to make sure we get the facts straight- the result of passively watching people inflate claims and sway arguments is what we currently see on mainstream media.
No argument about criminal acts. So we seem to be in need of more law enforcement, which I highly favor.
And I do feel it is important to make sure we get the facts straight- the result of passively watching people inflate claims and sway arguments is what we currently see on mainstream media.
No argument about criminal acts. So we seem to be in need of more law enforcement, which I highly favor.
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Agreed, What I mean is we got problems, not that they are unsolvable.
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Gee, guys, great reports. Glad you could attend and give us a good picture of what's really happening up there.
As a typical guy, I see a problem and want to fix it right away. Well, I'll have to think about this one for a bit. Don't think I'll have the answer either. For now, best answer is what you all have said, need more law enforcement and block off hazardous areas.
Was there much conversation about the ideas of improving good/attractive places to shoot?
As a typical guy, I see a problem and want to fix it right away. Well, I'll have to think about this one for a bit. Don't think I'll have the answer either. For now, best answer is what you all have said, need more law enforcement and block off hazardous areas.
Was there much conversation about the ideas of improving good/attractive places to shoot?
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There was some but it was limited. Surprisingly it was suggested by the Dem representative listed above.
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I'm sad that I missed it but agree that more LE will be a step in the right direction. Also placing the areas of concern off limits is a major step to keep the rif raf from harming residents and shutting it down for everyone.
I have seen the types that just go wild and shoot at anything, hold my beer & watch this types. Confronting these yahoos is not for civilians either (unless it is of an immediate safety concern), you never know what will happen!!!
Thanks again for your on site attendance guys, it is definitely appreciated.
I have seen the types that just go wild and shoot at anything, hold my beer & watch this types. Confronting these yahoos is not for civilians either (unless it is of an immediate safety concern), you never know what will happen!!!
Thanks again for your on site attendance guys, it is definitely appreciated.
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County Sheriff's often help a lot, if they can patrol this area. I'm not sure if that has to be an arrangement with USFS or not. On the other hand, if people are shooting in residential areas Sheriff's dept should be there. Or is it on National Forest land but with residential nearby? (In other words, the beginning of Nat Forest land).
I'd like to hear what @rangerlars would have to say about enforcement issues and how he's addressed this kind of situation.
I still feel strongly that an education/awareness campaign would be effective in this case. It's a long haul idea, however, with the initial posting, blocking and enforcing the problem areas, doing our information program would solidify the fact, to any and all shooters, that more of us are out there watching, caring and trying to keep our forest open. Once that message gets out, the problem guys may be thinking twice.
I think we could do some good. Like the idea that ironmonster had about forming a non profit group to tackle this problem. I don't think we really need a non profit, just do it ourselves. If USFS can come up with the enforcement, signage and access blocking, we could step up to do the public awareness campaign and see where that leads us. They could also begin a campaign with media. We could also work with local outdoor rec stores to help spread the message. Hopefully, the locals would also get involved as well.
Just fishin for ideas.
I'd like to hear what @rangerlars would have to say about enforcement issues and how he's addressed this kind of situation.
I still feel strongly that an education/awareness campaign would be effective in this case. It's a long haul idea, however, with the initial posting, blocking and enforcing the problem areas, doing our information program would solidify the fact, to any and all shooters, that more of us are out there watching, caring and trying to keep our forest open. Once that message gets out, the problem guys may be thinking twice.
I think we could do some good. Like the idea that ironmonster had about forming a non profit group to tackle this problem. I don't think we really need a non profit, just do it ourselves. If USFS can come up with the enforcement, signage and access blocking, we could step up to do the public awareness campaign and see where that leads us. They could also begin a campaign with media. We could also work with local outdoor rec stores to help spread the message. Hopefully, the locals would also get involved as well.
Just fishin for ideas.
one thing i was thinking about, we need to find out where the riffraff/yahoos are getting their information about the existence of these shooting places. education is most effective if we do it at the source.
next time someone runs across one of these people, see if you can find out where they got their info from.
next time someone runs across one of these people, see if you can find out where they got their info from.
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Me and family/friends have been enjoying that area for the past 20+ years. I went there more often before the big flood wiped out all the access to the white river valley.
We Jeep across Naches wagon trail in the summer, snowcap Beaver Creek area in the snow, target practice and just enjoy the outdoors.
I stopped camping in the area some time ago because of all the trash being dumped in campsites.
When 7020 finally opened back up after 10 years of recovery from the 2004 storm it only took 2 days for all the nice camps right along the creek to fill up with broken beer bottles and dirty diapers. Pretty sick.
Sad to say I've seen the steady decline in responsible behavior first hand many times.
Wheeling off trail, shooting off into the woods with no backstop, shooting live trees down with 12 GA Buckshot, cutting red cedar, launching fireworks during a burn ban, etc, etc.
9 out of 10 times it's a new clean car or truck packed with a bunch of entitled youth doing whatever the hell they want and EF anybody that tell them otherwise.
I've tried to talk to them, it's pointless unless your a LEO.
We really can't blame residents for being sick and tired of stray bullets whizzing through their property and people dumping crap in their back yard. I'd be pissed too.
Sad to hear they may close the GW area to shooting.
It only took 2 close calls to close all of the I-90 corridor.
I would expect this closure to go through without much of a fight. Maybe the rock pit stays open?
Green water's close proximity to several overpopulated and growing cities and lack of law enforcement presence makes it "the easy spot to just go pop off rounds".
(A statement I overheard at a local gun shop recently that made me cringe.)
We Jeep across Naches wagon trail in the summer, snowcap Beaver Creek area in the snow, target practice and just enjoy the outdoors.
I stopped camping in the area some time ago because of all the trash being dumped in campsites.
When 7020 finally opened back up after 10 years of recovery from the 2004 storm it only took 2 days for all the nice camps right along the creek to fill up with broken beer bottles and dirty diapers. Pretty sick.
Sad to say I've seen the steady decline in responsible behavior first hand many times.
Wheeling off trail, shooting off into the woods with no backstop, shooting live trees down with 12 GA Buckshot, cutting red cedar, launching fireworks during a burn ban, etc, etc.
9 out of 10 times it's a new clean car or truck packed with a bunch of entitled youth doing whatever the hell they want and EF anybody that tell them otherwise.
I've tried to talk to them, it's pointless unless your a LEO.
We really can't blame residents for being sick and tired of stray bullets whizzing through their property and people dumping crap in their back yard. I'd be pissed too.
Sad to hear they may close the GW area to shooting.
It only took 2 close calls to close all of the I-90 corridor.
I would expect this closure to go through without much of a fight. Maybe the rock pit stays open?
Green water's close proximity to several overpopulated and growing cities and lack of law enforcement presence makes it "the easy spot to just go pop off rounds".
(A statement I overheard at a local gun shop recently that made me cringe.)
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Clean Up event is scheduled! Short notice. This Sat Oct 3rd!
https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/clean-up-mt-baker-snoqualmie-national-forest.206113/
https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/clean-up-mt-baker-snoqualmie-national-forest.206113/
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Check the thread to see the reports of today's event. Also, a link to photos and other discussions about this.
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