shooting at Fed Ex in Indy

[bbbass]

The current homeless mental health "system" is certainly inhumane.

Institutionalization would be better, and easily improved upon given what is known from our previous failures.

In my opinion.

We need to get permission from Gerry Rivers, errrrr... Geraldo Rivera. LOL

 

[bbbass]

The government should p*** or get of the pot. Check people out and if they find some issue INSTEAD of trying to build an air tight case over months or years, get a public safety hazard off the streets. Are they dangerous or not? If not leave people alone. If they are, and it shouldn't be rocket science, remove them like any danger.

AFAIK, states have existing laws regarding mental health issues. Problem is, no psych wants to designate anybody as having an issue. It doesn't get used, so they don't get rejected by a BGC.

However, when O'bummer wanted to red flag any Vet that needed help filling out forms, paying bills, etc, I ran from the VA shrinks office as fast as I could and stayed away since.

 

[Dinglenutz]

If you are on a list, should the FBI or other agencies look further into you and restrict your rights? Or shouldn't you still have the right to the 4th amendment?

This is a false dichotomy - looking into someone doesn't have to be a violation of their rights.

 

[Member 34319]

This is a false dichotomy - looking into someone doesn't have to be a violation of their rights.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The fourth amendment has been violated if one was investigated by unlawful means.

There is no law against being suicidal.

There is no law against being of poor mental health.

He broke no laws, until he committed murder.

After he committed murder, he became a felon, not before.

 

[Dinglenutz]

The fourth amendment has been violated if one was investigated by unlawful means.

Emphasis added. There are plenty of lawful means.

There is no law against being of poor mental health.

Not sure that's true.

 

[nwslopoke]

I imagine they did. The FBI still has to operate within the law. So they likely did not find anything on the kid. Especially since he was just a kid. I imagine they found no legal grounds to continue their investigations and got off the pot.

Like I said before, this kid committed no crimes until he committed murder. He was red flagged over feelings. We don't enforce laws for feelings. So technically his rights were removed by his mother's feelings. We have no science to prove that someone is suicidal. Being suicidal is not a crime.

Respectfully, when it comes to teenagers especially when a mothers says, come look at my boy, something is already wrong. Most mothers go to great lengths to prove their kid is normal. I'm a parent and I recognized my daughter had inner issues towards herself.

Reports now show he has some irregularities. Just like in boot camp. 49 guys act one way but that one guy...everyone has an eye on. Up to 21 we do have more control and need to use it. Call it a super time out but sometimes it's necessary.

 

[Member 34319]

Emphasis added. There are plenty of lawful means.

Definitely. There are many lawful reasons that law enforcement uses. I agree with you.

Respectfully, when it comes to teenagers especially when a mothers says, come look at my boy, something is already wrong. Most mothers go to great lengths to prove their kid is normal. I'm a parent and I recognized my daughter had inner issues towards herself.

Reports now show he has some irregularities. Just like in boot camp. 49 guys act one way but that one guy...everyone has an eye on. Up to 21 we do have more control and need to use it. Call it a super time out but sometimes it's necessary.

If a minor that's one thing, the parent is legally responsible.

As an adult, without committing any crimes, a parents opinion or feelings are not law and should not be used to restrict that individuals rights.

Until we start creating laws for the way a humans brain is and is not supposed to work. If we even can? This whole thing is highly questionable. From a 2nd amendment perspective, it's rather terrifying.

Gets into the whole, equal rights under the law thing. Well except for those people, their brains don't work right.

 

[bbbass]

Local teen made a bomb and threatened people/teachers at the High Screwl.

Turns out that the kid had been in trouble for many years starting in grade school. The school just kept giving him chances. The judges kept giving him chances. Nobody held him accountable or insisted that he needed treatment or intervention. Until it was too late. Sound familiar???

 

[CRBMoA]

Gun Control is a misnomer - It is actually people control.

Guns are inanimate objects. Guns do not follow laws.

I would suggest that those who are saying the Alphabet team dropped the ball are REALLY expressing frustration with having BGCs at all.

Why the hell are you gonna ask if you are not going to DO anything with the info? And if the Alphabet Agencies are not going to deny this shooter (and I do not want to live in Minority Report land), then quit bugging us and leave us alone.

I don't recall any Wild West Mass Shootings.

 

[bbbass]

I don't recall any Wild West Mass Shootings.

You really left yourself open on that one my friend!!

 

[CRBMoA]

You really left yourself open on that one my friend!!

On purpose, My Friend!

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I don't know which is more humane. Likely neither.

Until we have better science behind it to allow for laws to be better developed, I don't think there is a good answer.

It is inhumane to ignore people who can't make decisions for themselves due to mental illness and let them wander the streets, eating out of dumpsters, getting serially arrested for assault and petty theft, and sleeping in the mud under bridges, even if it's in the name of their "freedom". That was a convenient excuse for closing down the state mental hospitals in order to balance state budgets, and putting the burden of 24/7 care and supervision on over-worked and untrained family and friends. Trading human lives and quality of life for money is never humane. These shooters almost invariably have a history of this kind of societal neglect.

Mental illness is different from most other diseases and medical conditions in that it makes it impossible for those affected to make informed and intelligent decisions about their own treatment. We can be selfish and choose to honor their "freedoms", or we can be caring and helpful to our fellow human beings and take care of them when they can't take care of themselves. These shootings, and the accompanying anti-gun legislation are part of the hidden costs of NOT providing the care that these people need. Do I have to ask if it's worth it?

 

[Member 34319]

It is inhumane to ignore people who can't make decisions for themselves due to mental illness and let them wander the streets, eating out of dumpsters, getting serially arrested for assault and petty theft, and sleeping in the mud under bridges, even if it's in the name of their "freedom". That was a convenient excuse for closing down the state mental hospitals in order to balance state budgets, and putting the burden of 24/7 care and supervision on over-worked and untrained family and friends. Trading human lives and quality of life for money is never humane. These shooters almost invariably have a history of this kind of societal neglect.

Mental illness is different from most other diseases and medical conditions in that it makes it impossible for those affected to make informed and intelligent decisions about their own treatment. We can be selfish and choose to honor their "freedoms", or we can be caring and helpful to our fellow human beings and take care of them when they can't take care of themselves. These shootings, and the accompanying anti-gun legislation are part of the hidden costs of NOT providing the care that these people need. Do I have to ask if it's worth it?

I don't disagree with much if anything you said here.

I also agree that mental illness is hugely different than other illnesses. Especially when trying to source its cause. Cancer, malignant cells. Diabetes, lack of insulin production. Crazy, unknownish. We are only now learning what does what inside the human brain in connection to the human body. Imbalances in hormones, excess use of stimulants and drugs, the list is anything but short and precise right now. Creating law on this isn't something I'd want to have anything to do with!

 

[American123]

Trying to "prevent evil" is really riding a thin line and is closer to "pre-crime" minority report than anything.

For example: I have a thoroughly developed hobby/passion for firearms. There are people in our society who might call me "nuts" based on how developed my hobby/passion is. How does society differentiate between those who are a danger and those who aren't when that claim can so easily be weaponized. Who determines what is dangerous?

All these recommendations really don't ever get past the reality that evil cannot be legislated away, because if someone is coherent enough to carry out an attack, it's not a crazy issue, it's an evil issue, and determined evil will use anything and everyone toward the goal.

Our society and the laws that govern it are not capable of preventing evil people from doing evil things, at least not 100%, the system is based on deterrents, but those aren't effective for everyone. I've got some ideas that I believe would be extremely effective, but the majority of society would view them as barbaric and inhumane.

 

[FourTeeFive]

So we have someone who was Red Flagged, "authorities" came and took a gun, yet somehow the approval process to buy a new gun still worked?

Am I missing something here? Sounds like a classic case of the laws not working to begin with, so why do they keep talking about new laws?

 

[ZigZagZeke]

How does society differentiate between those who are a danger and those who aren't when that claim can so easily be weaponized. Who determines what is dangerous?

As I've explained before, 50 years ago we had a system for doing just that. People exhibiting severe mental issues were committed by family or law enforcement for a 72 hour observation period. During that 72 hours they were interviewed by professional mental health workers, witnesses were interviewed, and case work-ups were developed. At the end of the 72 hours a hearing was held before a specially trained judge with the detainee and his/her lawyer present. Staff reports and witness testimony was accepted and heard by the judge. The judge then made a decision whether the detainee was a threat to themselves or the community, and whether further observation and treatment was necessary. If so, the person was involuntarily committed for another 8 weeks of treatment, at the end of which another hearing was held.

People didn't get involuntarily committed for trivial reasons, like not liking peanut butter, or voting for Barry Goldwater. They got involuntarily committed for things like threatening to kill the president for putting aliens inside their heads, or chasing their wife down the street with a meat cleaver while naked, and accusing her of conspiring with the family dog to kill them, or hearing voices telling them to kill everyone with blue eyes. Those are the people who are now wandering our streets unsupervised. That's why prior to the closing of state mental hospitals we didn't have the level and kinds of horrific violent crime we have now.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

You seem to be going out of your way to normalize the many Baldwin gave where he said that. Having been personally attacked by his cultish followers for a comment questioning why they were hanging out in a parking lot in the wee hours, I'll not participate in any idolization or giving of breaks.

But if I were to accept your theory, I would say it shows what a bad idea giving interviews after a "traumatic" incident is, because at the very least he made it seem like it was nothing to him, not traumatic at all. He was as proud as if he had just won a major bike race. Yeah, he won. Good for him. But he's no hero worthy of the kind of adulation that he's gotten.

You ever see an interview with Chris Kyle? He didn't talk like that.

I had only seen the one NRA video and after the shooting I found a "Cribs" video he made years ago before Tori.

I have not seen any other interviews.

I thought that Las Vegas was open 24/7, so eating a burger in the In and Out parking lot at 1AM may not be that unusual or considered risky to a Vegas native. Personally I prefer to avoid predator watering holes.

Correct, you should not speak with the media after a defensive gun use. My guess is that since BJ is a local celebrity AND the other bad guy blamed the shooting on his dead partner, that BJ felt confidant enough to make the NRA spot to warn voters about Biden and Beto.

 

[American123]

As I've explained before, 50 years ago we had a system for doing just that. People exhibiting severe mental issues were committed by family or law enforcement for a 72 hour observation period. During that 72 hours they were interviewed by professional mental health workers, witnesses were interviewed, and case work-ups were developed. At the end of the 72 hours a hearing was held before a specially trained judge with the detainee and his/her lawyer present. Staff reports and witness testimony was accepted and heard by the judge. The judge then made a decision whether the detainee was a threat to themselves or the community, and whether further observation and treatment was necessary. If so, the person was involuntarily committed for another 8 weeks of treatment, at the end of which another hearing was held.

People didn't get involuntarily committed for trivial reasons, like not liking peanut butter, or voting for Barry Goldwater. They got involuntarily committed for things like threatening to kill the president for putting aliens inside their heads, or chasing their wife down the street with a meat cleaver while naked, and accusing her of conspiring with the family dog to kill them, or hearing voices telling them to kill everyone with blue eyes. Those are the people who are now wandering our streets unsupervised. That's why prior to the closing of state mental hospitals we didn't have the level and kinds of horrific violent crime we have now.

I don't agree that decades ago there wasn't the type of crime we have now. Just looking at violent crime stats shows that violent crime has been trending a decline for decades. However, decades ago we didn't have cameras attached to everyone all the time and common people able to put their videos on the internet for the whole world to see in a matter of moments. The media sensationalizes violence. If you want to get famous today, doing a terrible act of violence will get you a full weeks coverage of non stop media. I'd also say that, so far, most if not all of these pieces of crap killers, would pass the "are you crazy or not" test and not be locked up by that system anyway, again, evil and crazy aren't the same.

I myself spent 20 days voluntarily in a psych ward after a doctor prescribed medicine caused me to have suicidal thoughts and actions. There were some "weirdos" in there for sure, but my definition of "weirdos" is also different from another persons. The other problem I see about this is, if you didn't know me prior to my reaction to the prescription, you might have easily mistook me for crazy and not an educated and respectable guy who had a bad reaction to doctor prescribed sleeping pills. I got to argue with several doctors about what label they were trying to apply to me because they wanted to go the route of "schizophrenia" and ignore that the episode was only related to the prescription. Pretty sad state of affairs when (in my opinion) the patient has more sense than the doctors.

 

[bbbass]

I had only seen the one NRA video and after the shooting I found a "Cribs" video he made years ago before Tori.

I have not seen any other interviews.

I thought that Las Vegas was open 24/7, so eating a burger in the In and Out parking lot at 1AM may not be that unusual or considered risky to a Vegas native. Personally I prefer to avoid predator watering holes.

Correct, you should not speak with the media after a defensive gun use. My guess is that since BJ is a local celebrity AND the other bad guy blamed the shooting on his dead partner, that BJ felt confidant enough to make the NRA spot to warn voters about Biden and Beto.

I might watch this one later in the office where I can have the sound on... just out of curiosity.

And yes, I did mention in an earlier post that I got corrected/harangued by a bunch of his cultists ridiculing me cuz I failed to make the connection to Vegas 24/7.Upon that, I did realize I was wrong about he and Tori (before I had any idea what important people they are) not following the rules of stupid. Dammit. Open mouth insert foot, get harshly corrected, that's the way of the interwebs.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

I might watch this one later in the office where I can have the sound on... just out of curiosity.

Looks like he has gotten more guns since then. A lot more.