Shoot to stop vs. Shoot to kill

[jack1122]

If you draw your gun, your in danger of your life.


Jack

 

[Schwabdl]

oregon courts contiuously uphold that when you pull the trigger your intent is to kill the only reason to draw and fire a weapon is if your life or an innocents life is in imidiate danger

 

[cjmack52]

Everything that i have been trained to do is shoot to stop the threat, and worry about there well being afterwards. Unfortunately we live in a world that lawsuits come first no matter if its for or against you. There has been cases were the paralyzed intruder sued the victim for shooting him....... So if you have to shoot i say do what you must.

 

[jack1122]

The only time that you should draw your weapon is when YOUR life or YOUR families life is in imminent danger.


Jack

 

[theLEMband]

Things will likely happen too fast to contemplate at the time. IMHO you should not try to differentiate, but instead train to shoot center of visible mass until you are sure you are no longer in danger. That is official policy for many law enforcement agencies & seems reasonable to me.

 

[Doubletap]

Common sense tells us that you have to shoot a person in a place that kills them to reliably stop them. The question answers itself.

jj

The simple truth..in short concise terms.. Thanks Jim

 

[el gringo loco]

I think that PlayboyPenguin was making a bit of a point about the legality of using deadly force. In Oregon, you can use deadly force to protect yourself or another from the imminent use of deadly force. Your intent is to stop the threat. Your method may be by killing the threat. I think this is a subtle legal difference that would be very important to understand if one wanted to prevail in the subsequent lawsuit.

I don't think anyone who is familiar with firearms would argue that one should aim for anything other than center mass or a necessary headshot (as the situation dictates). However, it is important to understand that death is kind of a byproduct of deadly force, not the actual intent.

Those who talk about making sure there is only one side of the story, etc. should have a talk with a combat vet or a cop who has shot someone. Making sure you "finished the job" is not going to be what you are thinking about until too much time has passed and pulling the trigger again will have gone from self defense to murder. If the incident happens anywhere near Emanuel Hospital, it won't matter how many times you shot them, they'll probably survive.

 

[clearconscience]

Those who talk about making sure there is only one side of the story, etc. should have a talk with a combat vet or a cop who has shot someone. Making sure you "finished the job" is not going to be what you are thinking about until too much time has passed and pulling the trigger again will have gone from self defense to murder. If the incident happens anywhere near Emanuel Hospital, it won't matter how many times you shot them, they'll probably survive.

Part of my point was that you shouldn't ever pull a gun on someone unless your ready to kill them. If you pull a gun and the situation doesn't turn deadly you could be charged as well.
I'm am in NO way saying you should kill them to make sure the truth doesn't come out.
If you have a reason to pull a gun, you better make damn sure they need to die. And yu may never know what stupid tricks the D.A. will pull against you, or what the suspect may say to turn the story. Better to just put yourself in a secure position with a good view to give yourself the choice and if there's no other way shoot to kill.

 

[Deavis]

When they stop (doing what they did to get shot) YOU STOP.

 

[Wenis]

I am going to assume that if you shoot anyone, in any situation, you are going to be under the scrutiny of the law, be that LEOs, lawyers, or a judge. They will question your previous training, number of shots fired, number of bullet wounds and their locations, your criminal background, etc. This is whether there is a "witness" or not. To a jury, 10 rounds at center of mass looks pretty bad in a self-defense case. Of course while you're in the situation, there isn't much time to think, so you're going to do what you're going to do, but my advice is to increase your defense training so there is little doubt to your credibility in questioning your training or character.

 

[NK777]

Shoot to stop but if they die they die and I'm not going to worry about it either way. If I ever have to shoot some one I will fire and will only stop firing when the threat has been eliminated. I do not spend a lot of time worrying about the consequences because the fact is I will not shoot unless i absolutely have to. Meaning I or my family, friends, etc. have to be clearly in grave danger. In the presents of very serious grave danger you do what you have to do but the goal is not to take a life unless you have no other option to stop the threat. IF they are still capable and intent on killing you, your family, friends etc. keep shooting. In other words bullet holes do not keep the bad guy from firing back and as long as they have the means and intent to return fire they are still a very real threat. If they give up don't shoot them anymore but if they don't keep firing.

Anyways I don't think this is rocket science to anybody. Shoot to stop but understand that they might die in the process and there will be consequences either way. Better to live then be indecissive and die IMHO.

 

[krawl]

The biggest difference come to what you say when it matters most. Much better to practice saying shoot to stop, should the need ever arise.

 

[terrylf72]

First off great topic Playboy. Second I have put off posting to it.

90% of all my training has come from my father and it continued till he passed last year. US Army.
When my sister and I were young (8 and 9). The normal stuff, holding, aiming, handling. But once we got older (17sister and myself 18) the training turned from servival to selfdefence. I was told that if it was me that had to use the weapon shot to stop the threat. My sisters orders were shoot to kill the threat. We were left at home a lot at that age and dad alwas left use 357 for S.D. if something where to happen while he and mom where gone.
Yes it was in a lock box that we all had keys too.

Once I turned 21 and started carrying I noticed that my dad attitude towards my training turned to more servival then lethal. Not only did he make it a point for me to seek training from other sorses. But his words were like gold to me still. "Defend yourself as need, if at that point you need to draw your weapon, be sure you are IN FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE and shoot to stop the threat. But if more then 1 attacker. you know what you have to do to servive.

You never know untill it happens how far you will have to go till it happens. But I will have to say if my kids are with me, I will shoot to kill to protect them. If Im alone and they just want my P.O.S. car, they can have it till I feel my life is in grave danger.

 

[krawl]

You never know untill it happens how far you will have to go till it happens. But I will have to say if my kids are with me, I will shoot to kill to protect them. If Im alone and they just want my P.O.S. car, they can have it till I feel my life is in grave danger.

That's what can get you in trouble though. You were not shooting to kill, you were shooting to stop the threat on your childs life. unfortunately there is a difference. The end goal/result may be the same.

 

[rsmccsman]

Because we live in a land of lawyers your answer should be shoot to stop not shoot to kill. Now the most effective way to shoot to stop is center mass which also is the most likely wound to result in a fatality. Anything goes right up to the moment the threat has ceased. However if you have stopped someone and they are no longer a threat it would be a really bad idea to give them the coup de grace with a follow up head shot, no matter how justified you were up to that point. The DA would probably not be understanding about something like that. I saw a video on the internet of a pharmacist who shot it out with two would be armed robbers in his store. He was totally justified right up until he walked over to the wounded unconscious robber and shot him in the head directly in front of his own security video camera. I think the guy was charged with murder as a result. I don't know the outcome of the case.

 

[Chee-to]

Drill instructor once said "Remember, your enemy is your enemy until he's dead"

 

[nixuser]

i say stop the threat with extreme prejudice !!

 

[country boy]

Drill instructor once said "Remember, your enemy is your enemy until he's dead"

That's in war, this is in civilian life. Big difference.

 

[Fjolnirsson]

When we draw a firearm, we are (or should be) in fear for our life, or for that of another. We are, at that time, under some sort of threat we should be able to later clearly explain to a jury. When we fire at an assailant, we shoot to stop the threat, not to kill. Shooting to kill indicates to an attorney that we simply wanted to kill someone. I cannot speak for others, but I do not wish to kill anyone. I only want to be left alone, safe and uninjured. To that end, I will shoot to stop a threat.
When we shoot to stop a threat, there are several mechanisms which accomplish the "stopping" part. One is fear. If a criminal sees me draw and runs away, great. If he takes a bullet, and stops his attack out of fear of his life blood draining away, fine. Beyond that, stopping a threat means removal of something via a force multiplier. Blood, ability to breathe, or interruption of electrical signals from the assailants brain to his muscles. Whichever of these occurs, none of them are my goal. My goal, my purpose, my only desire, is to stop the threat.
I was taught in the police academy as well as civilian schools, we do not shoot to kill. We shoot to stop the threat. YMMV.

 

[Chee-to]

Quote:
Drill instructor once said "Remember, your enemy is your enemy until he's dead"

That's in war, this is in civilian life. Big difference.

Excuse me ? If someone is attacking or threatening me or my family with deadly force, they're my enemy, no "difference," If you haven't got that figured out, good luck ! Take a firearms self-defense course and educate yourself......