sheep dogs and mall shooters....My opinion.

[Norm0931]

His point was that the majority of CHL holders in America are not trained to respond to this. Nearly all of them THINK they are and because they go to the range they suddenly know effective and precise tactical actions in a urban combat environment. This is incorrect. Some of us have military training and combat experience and while it would not be the same situation, we are more likely to be able to respond with effectiveness.

Couple things I have noticed: 1) Body armor or not, getting shot still hurts, A LOT. I guarantee that two shots center mass with 9mm hollowpoints would have done some damage, it might not have killed him, and depending on if he was on drugs (seen this in the middle east) it might have done more or less but, it would still do something.
2) No one who has not been in a combat situation can say what they WILL do if or when it actually happens to them. I am 100% sure that someone in that mall was carrying a concealed handgun. Does it mean they are a coward for not calling this guy out into the middle of the food court and going all matrix style fight seen with him? No. It means they did what was the most effective thing to ensure the safety of those around them at the time, get them out of harms way. Have any of you "well i'd run toward the fire and take the guy down to save lives" considered that you get shot by the shooter? Now he is fueled up by more emotion (he has taken down someone who was trying to stop him) and he has YOUR GUN.

I'm not saying the police are always tactical experts, they usually do their best with the situation they are given but, they don't have the training or funding the military has, and for good reason. For those that bubblegum and point out about too many rounds being fired at someone, you have never been in combat and have no idea how quickly rounds are fired in that situation but, that's their job. It's not yours. We have police to respond to incidents like this. If you don't like the way a police force or your police force is operating, try to change it. Don't just bubblegum and moan about it on the internet.

 

[oknow]

But but you are saying they shouldn't draw their weapons,even if they had them.So how were they incompetent,in your eyes?

I'm missing something here.You're in the middle of the court,at a table,the guy starts shooting. You just grab the family and run?
So automatically,you are saying because the people didn't protect themselves they are incompetent.
What if there were people in there with your mind set? Maybe they were carrying and decided it wasn't their fight .Just kept their guns holstered.
Wouldn't that be incompetent?
If you are within range,you and yours are in danger,weather he sees you or not.Bullets go though tables and plants and chairs.
The ones you would be hiding behind to save your own a$$

And as far as the cops shooting you,wouldn't you have your gun holstered by then?

where did I say that?

 

[davemata]

However, I've heard alot of others who don't have that training say the same thing and that is the wrong attitude to have.

What makes you the arbiter of what is right and wrong?

 

[Blitzkrieg]

This discussion reminds me of the mexican shooter in Texas who had an AK47 and was shooting up town hall, big time. A fellow who was a firearms trainer at the nearby indoor range tried to take him out from behind with a 45.. he shot repeatedly into the shooter's back.. but the perp was wearing body armor, turned and mowed the good guy down. He was later taken out by multiple cops after a vehicle chase

My first priority is to protect my family and return home to continue this. As stated if I get the perfect shot or have a combat rifle handy maybe will step up to the plate. Very good advice about the cops mistaking you for the perp..

 

[oknow]

But but you are saying they shouldn't draw their weapons,even if they had them.So how were they incompetent,in your eyes?

I'm missing something here.You're in the middle of the court,at a table,the guy starts shooting. You just grab the family and run?
So automatically,you are saying because the people didn't protect themselves they are incompetent.
What if there were people in there with your mind set? Maybe they were carrying and decided it wasn't their fight .Just kept their guns holstered.
Wouldn't that be incompetent?
If you are within range,you and yours are in danger,weather he sees you or not.Bullets go though tables and plants and chairs.
The ones you would be hiding behind to save your own a$$

And as far as the cops shooting you,wouldn't you have your gun holstered by then?

then I would be ready to protect me and mine.
and tell me how you know there is just one shooter there?

 

[Blitzkrieg]

‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’ -Burke

I prefer this quote by the old West "hanging judge" Roy Bean

When a man with a pistol goes up against a man with a rifle, the man with the pistol will die

 

[DuneHopper]

A person trained is taught :
Your gun use is 10% physical and 90% mental end of story.

Unless you have seen a person die in front of you, you have no idea what is in store once you pull that trigger.
I am still reminded of the first person I saw die in pain you hear their voice like it was yesterday and it never
will be removed from your memory.

I also get tired of the yahoo BS, life is not a FKING
video game and this is not Call Of Duty.

Just my two cents !

 

[greydog111]

It's not about being a hero.

The difference is doing the right thing. Being recognized as a hero is the wrong motivation. Protect the weak, innocent, infirm, helpless, sheeple from the rogue wolves. No matter the rewards. In virtue there is honor, in rightousness there is hope!

 

[shooter58]

Only 2 kinds of people in the world. Those who run away from the sound of gun fire and those who run towards it. Not saying that either is the right or wrong thing to do but as stated in this thread, instinct takes over. I have done things in the past that others would perceive as stupid and very few of them would I do different if I could do them over. I totally agree with the idea of being prepared to defend yourself and by all means, listen to your instincts as every single situation will have a different set of circumstances that you will have to evaluate in a split second. I do love living in a land where I am still free to do make my own decisions and take responsibility for the consequences.

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

My main fear would be after the shooter and I exchanged fire and lets say my aim was better than his that day.. Well we ALL know leos get trigger happy and may shoot first and ask questions later thus I could wind up dead NOT by the assailants hand but by our boys in blue.

My reasoning behind this also stems from "witness accounts".. I heard about 4 very different detailed stories from key witnesses.. Stating where the shots first started to the last direction the shots were fired.. All the way to what the shooter was wearing all four stories had only ONE thing in common: there was a shooter.

Also witnesses in the light of fear and death seeonly what their sheep brains could make sense of.. Often times, if you're the last one they saw.. You might be placed in the scenario as the shooter or an accomplice.. Which could get you shot no matter what you tried to tell those trigger happy leos and they stormed on in. You could lay on the floor assuming the position and toss your firearm across the floor and they still may fire upon you stating they thought you were going to "Ram Them"
(see thread on cops shoot couple 137 times).

And lastly one has to think of how much time and money they have. Time because they could hold you.for hours or a full day ( I own my own business and my time is my money) without me being able to work that may mean a missed payment or a missed appointment the next day which means lost money and potential future business from that said appointment or appointments. The cops don't care what I have going on in my life, they'll question me time and time again.. Telling and retelling my side of the story.. Or perhaps they take me to jail assuming I broke some kind of law and I'd have to fight that in court as well as fight for my possible 2A rights..

So.. It would be a 50/50 for me. I would do anything to save my family and friends and if another CCer or OCer was there and we teamed up to hunt the shooter down you betcha. Two defendants are stronger than one in court (usually). Or if I had a clear line of shot darn skippy.. But those above thoughts have passed through my head..

I'd like to be a sheep dog and protect everyone.. But I've got a family and a business to run.. So really it would depend on the situation and the opportunity. Odds are I'd put the punk down every time.. But those thoughts are always in the back of my mind.

 

[lv1986]

gunman walks past with AR, wearing mask. Doing nothing is a result of ignorance or cowardice. you choose..

 

[shooter58]

I have some experience turning on a predator. 100% of the time when the perceived prey turns on the predator, the predator has a momentary complete mental shutdown as they try to make sense of what is happening. I have used that advantage more than once and count that as one of my top weapons along with my gun.

 

[shooter58]

I also get tired of the yahoo BS, life is not a FKING
video game and this is not Call Of Duty.

Just my two cents !

Yes, my guess is that it was the "Call of Duty" crowd fleeing at the first sign of trouble...

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

gunman walks past with AR, wearing mask. Doing nothing is a result of ignorance or cowardice. you choose..

But that's a dream.scenario.
In mine I'm in the mall but with no line of sight.
Also, if you're with your family your job and duty as a husband and father is to get them out of there. Be it taking the assailant out, making yourself the diversion or watching over your own and escorting them out.
People will trample others in many cases. My kids and wife will not die because I wanted to be some "hero" by leaving their sides.

So again, like with all SHTF scenarios a public shooting has just as many. And it'll never be a perfect scenario where he walks right by. Slim to none.
Ones training will help them calculate the best choice and possible outcome. Would I stop some punk running past me with an AR and hockey mask, most definitely. Would I foolishly leave my young child and pregnant wife scared and alone possibly getting trampled pushed or in some cases stabbed so others can get out? Hell no. I guess it comes down to your duties and priorities. I'd save strangers over my own life, but not my familys.

 

[Russianfist]

What makes you the arbiter of what is right and wrong?

It's my opinion....and mostly likely the same opinion as every LEO in the country. Your permit and what little training you have for it entitles you for self defence when no other options are available.

It is NOT a permit to take an offensive posture.

Also, keep in mind that lunatics like this often have a well laid plan as well as the element of suprise. Trying to take on a madman solo and without proper training is a very bad choice and will put even more people in harms way because you want to be the macho hero. Rather selfish if you ask me.
But then again....That's my opinion.

 

[dmancornell]

LOL @ this thread. Get over yourselves, you're not "sheep dogs". These people made their choice to leave their lives to the state, just let them be.

Your CC piece might as well be a squirt gun going up against a guy with an AR-15 and body armor. You can blame the state for refusing to let you carry a real fighting weapon (i.e. denying you your basic right of self-defense).

 

[shooter58]

It's my opinion....and mostly likely the same opinion as every LEO in the country. Your permit and what little training you have for it entitles you for self defence when no other options are available.

It is NOT a permit to take an offensive posture.

.

I have never sought permission to defend myself or how I do it...

 

[Russianfist]

gunman walks past with AR, wearing mask. Doing nothing is a result of ignorance or cowardice. you choose..

I don't know? Have shots been fired yet? If not,then do you be proactive and drop him before he gets a shot off?.....well,congratulations because you just killed a walking advertisement for the latest modern warefare release at Game Stop.

 

[shooter58]

LOL @ this thread. Get over yourselves, you're not "sheep dogs". These people made their choice to leave their lives to the state, just let them be.

Your CC piece might as well be a squirt gun going up against a guy with an AR-15 and body armor. You can blame the state for refusing to let you carry a real fighting weapon (i.e. denying you your basic right of self-defense).

I am fine with someone running away from the threat but someone telling me I should not stand and fight... That's where I take exception. I will fight if I choose, despite my only having a squirt gun...

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

I don't know? Have shots been fired yet? If not,then do you be proactive and drop him before he gets a shot off?.....well,congratulations because you just killed a walking advertisement for the latest modern warefare release at Game Stop.

you've got a point there. Unfortunately with as real as airsoft and toy guns look the man who shoots a 12yr old kid with a black nerf gun is going straight to jail and again paints a bad image of us cc and ocers.

I know my firearms but have any of you seen the new pellet gun pistols or airsoft rifles out there? They look darn near real.

That doesn't mean you can't.stop the kid and question him real quick to better educate him on toy guns in public and get a better look at his toy rifle while you're at it.