sheep dogs and mall shooters....My opinion.

[oknow]

And you can get killed walking your doggy. What is your point?

I don't go out of my way to get killed.

 

[orygun]

From what I've read here, many of you wouldn't pull your gun to save your own lives. You will spout your reasons of why you would run when you "may" be able to do the right thing, but will instantly trash talk another who might step up to save innocent lives.

There were people there today that were interviewed and were so close they had shell casings landing on them, or felt the "pressure change" when the attacker's gun was being discharged. Those people wouldn't have had to track down anyone. If even one of them had a handgun and the will to use it, maybe the only dead person would have been the one that truly deserved it.

We will never know.

 

[DFuller]

From what I've read here, many of you wouldn't pull your gun to save your own lives. You will spout your reasons of why you would run when you "may" be able to do the right thing, but will instantly trash talk another who might step up to save innocent lives.

There were people there today that were interviewed and were so close they had shell casings landing on them, or felt the "pressure change" when the attacker's gun was being discharged. Those people wouldn't have had to track down anyone. If even one of them had a handgun and the will to use it, maybe the only dead person would have been the one that truly deserved it.

We will never know.

I agree 100%

It's not about tracking someone down from another location but if you are caught in a bad spot. For those saying they would not use their gun in this clear cut case of a mass shooting then why carry at all?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Botte Hork]

His (oknow's) point is simple: Unlike others, he's not claiming to be the internet hero that'll step in. He's honest about being there for himself and his, an honesty that's commendable. My personal safety would be my prime concern, as would my family's. If saving others is a low-hanging fruit, I'll pluck it, but be aware of not overstretching your arms. You don't want that to cause a life-threatening injury...

For those saying they would not use their gun in this clear cut case of a mass shooting then why carry at all?

I think that's not the case. From what I read, people say they would choose not to use their gun as the default response. Assess the mess, not a bad idea before acting.

 

[oknow]

From what I've read here, many of you wouldn't pull your gun to save your own lives. You will spout your reasons of why you would run when you "may" be able to do the right thing, but will instantly trash talk another who might step up to save innocent lives.

There were people there today that were interviewed and were so close they had shell casings landing on them, or felt the "pressure change" when the attacker's gun was being discharged. Those people wouldn't have had to track down anyone. If even one of them had a handgun and the will to use it, maybe the only dead person would have been the one that truly deserved it.

We will never know.

who has posted that

 

[Bigfoot]

From what I've read here, many of you wouldn't pull your gun to save your own lives. You will spout your reasons of why you would run when you "may" be able to do the right thing, but will instantly trash talk another who might step up to save innocent lives.

There were people there today that were interviewed and were so close they had shell casings landing on them, or felt the "pressure change" when the attacker's gun was being discharged. Those people wouldn't have had to track down anyone. If even one of them had a handgun and the will to use it, maybe the only dead person would have been the one that truly deserved it.

We will never know.

Yup.

Sometimes people will make a statement that even they aren't positive of or invested in, but then someone else challenges that statement and they get their hackles up and dig their heels in, next thing you know they are rock solid about a view that even they weren't so sure of just a bit earlier.

 

[oknow]

Nor do I, the point is you don't have to go out of your way to get killed.

so why go looking for a shooter in the mall.

 

[Bigfoot]

This threads title is about sheepdogs. They will put their life at risk to save the lives of innocents. It's in some, not others. I respect those that won't as I'm sure they want to live in order to protect their family later or to enjoy a good life. Others aren't in that position and would gladly take the risk of falling if it means someone else (like the young) might live.

 

[Flyingswords]

Not disputing a single thing you said, but did you mean trained like the NYPD who hit eight innocent bystanders when taking on a man with a gun, or pumping 137 rounds into a couple in a car... you mean that kind of training? I think I can at least match that.

It was nine people that were hit. All were injured by the LEOs bullets, none of the LEOs bullets killed nor injured the shooter they were aiming for.

 

[mjbskwim]

if you want to risk your life for people to incompetent to protect themselves then go ahead and be a hero (possibly a dead hero). I have no reason to be a hero to anyone other than to mine and myself.

But but you are saying they shouldn't draw their weapons,even if they had them.So how were they incompetent,in your eyes?

I'm missing something here.You're in the middle of the court,at a table,the guy starts shooting. You just grab the family and run?
So automatically,you are saying because the people didn't protect themselves they are incompetent.
What if there were people in there with your mind set? Maybe they were carrying and decided it wasn't their fight .Just kept their guns holstered.
Wouldn't that be incompetent?
If you are within range,you and yours are in danger,weather he sees you or not.Bullets go though tables and plants and chairs.
The ones you would be hiding behind to save your own a$$

And as far as the cops shooting you,wouldn't you have your gun holstered by then?

 

[biggie24420]

The only time I can react is if I am at the wrong place at the wrong time. If I am cornered and I see the shooter, I would make contact. If I just heard shots and saw people running, I would find a good spot and hide. There is no way I can go on a hunt to take down the bad guy because I don't want to take the chance of getting hit by friendly fire. It is not my job (as selfish as it sounds) and I am not sworn to protect!. Who is gonna pay my legal fees?
I used to be in the mind set that, I as a sheepdog should protect and respond...... well.... I learned more and grew up, to be honest. MY LIFE, MY RESPONSIBILITY..... other citizens have the ability to go learn and begin to carry legally. I can't afford to put my own life in danger and maybe pay the ultimate price so someone else lives. I am not that desperate to be a hero and I just don't want to explain as to why I went on a hunt and I don't have the same training as the LEs do.
I don't drive a car.... do you know how many people drive past me who don't give me a ride? they are not obligated to give me a ride, it's my responsibility to find a way to get form point A to point B.... same thing with guns. Just because I have a gun it does not mean you get to enjoy the benefits of it. Again, if I am cornered and I have no other option.... I will use deadly force. And I will add that if I am about to see someone murder someone right in front of me, I think I would react and stop the threat.

 

[Botte Hork]

This threads title is about sheepdogs.

Like "tactical", it's an expression I dislike. I associate it with a misplaced notion of having to "take care" of others, close to some bossy pushing form of superiority. My views can be distorted, as always.

In the true libertarian sense we could argue one should support other people's freedom to choose against self protection and situational awareness.

 

[Spray-n-pray]

‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’ -Burke

Agreed.

 

[WhyteCheddar]

We all have an idea of how we might react when presented with certain situations.
The reality of it probably is though that even though we have the best of intentions, we don't really know how we will react until we actually find ourselves in the situation.
My hope is that none of us would do anything to make a bad situation worse regardless of our actions.

 

[Botte Hork]

Define "nothing" please. "Nothing" to some is a conscious decision to lay low and not attract attention to others.

I can understand both sides: The drive to step in and to apply force to make right what is wrong, but also the choice to get out ASAP.


In these discussion there's often a polarisation to extremes, very black and white. Reality usually consists of many shades of grey. More than 50 even.


edit: Agree WhyteCheddar. I can't say for sure how I'd respond, as it's a type of situation I've never been in.

 

[Kevatc]

Not to get off topic to much .... I had been in Portland and was heading south towards home and decided to take a break and look around the Woodburn Outlet Mall. We no sooner got out of the car when the first OSP went flying by. 30 seconds later 8 more OSP's went flying by. Over the next 15 minutes 4 more OSP's went screaming northbound. I was impressed with their speed considering how wet it was. I called the wife of an OSP trooper who turned out to be one of those guys driving up there at break neck speed. She filled me in on what they knew at that point.

 

[Russianfist]

Totally respect your choice.

I'd pop him if I had a half decent chance. I've never wanted to waste my life and have always wanted to go out helping others. Gotta go out sometime, somehow.

We all have our reasons for our choices.

I hope I didn't leave the impression that I would trample old people and children to get the hell outta there because that's not the case. I pictured hearing shots but not knowing the location of gunmen. If thats the case you have a small window of time to evade or hide. But if you are close enough to feel shells hit you or muzzle compression then you are in a last resort situation and action must be taken.
So,lets recap: would I help others hide or flee? Yes. Would I put myself between a gunmen and children? Definitely. Would I take the shooter if I had an opportunity? Yes!!! Would I seek him out insted of assisting others with escape? No!!!! I have not been trained to take a gunman nor have I seen combat so I am realistic about it might go down. Then again, Heros are ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances.

 

[redmud]

I would make sure my kids and wife are safe, then any other children in my vicinity, adults can fend for themselves.

If I had a chance to affect the outcome I would especially if I were two steps behind the Guy.


If I saw any kids getting shot at I would be on a mission to remove that person from this earth.

I am no cowboy I just know how I would react

 

[biggie24420]

Isn’t the incident at CTC a clear cut case of just that?

Yeah but I mean I wouldn't go out of my way and go form one end of the mall to the other to find the bad guy and kill him/her. If I was at the food court and saw the bad guy, I would take cover and go from there.

 

[Ironbar]

In light of todays actions of a lunatic at Clackamas town center I was reflecting on what I would do in that situation. I also made an observation of what others have said they would do in such a tragic event.

Many of the sheep dogs (ccw/oc owners) say that if they were there things would have been much different. Now, some of these people I know that say this are well trained and have combat experience. To them I say go for it and do what must be done. However, I've heard alot of others who don't have that training say the same thing and that is the wrong attitude to have. Way to many things can go wrong and make a bad situation worse if you don't know what you are doing. If you find yourself in a situation like that listen to your instincts because anyone well trained will tell you that your instincts will keep you alive. Also,anyone who's been through a CCW class knows that your side arm is a last resort so going off to hunt down a shooter is just plain foolish if you have an opportunity to escape or hide. If you somehow by chance get the drop on a shooter then a couple things should come to mind. Do I have a clear shot, do they have a partner,are they wearing body armor and so on.

A Thunder Ranch student was in the mall at the time of the shooting.What did he do? HE HID! Not because he was a coward but its what he was trained to do. His advice was get to cover,get out pf sight and flee.

We would all be better off if their were more sheep dogs in the world and I am %100 supportive of CCW/OC but I get very frustrated when I hear "cowboy" remarks from people who arn't qualified to protect the lives of others.

So what would have I done in that situation? Flee! If I was unable to flee I would get to cover and pray I didnt come face to face with a gunman. If I somehow got the drop on the bad guy I would take the shot ONLY if I had no other options.

One last thing, once you pull that side arm be prepared for what happens next. Another sheep dog or LEO could mistake you for a bad guy in the chaos and it could end badly for you. Even if you stop the bad guy.

Sorry for the rant, these are just my thoughts.

THANK YOU! Thank you for saying what I was just about to post this morning! The vast majority of comments on the other thread were fairly sane, but those few from the peanut gallery actively WISHING they had been there to "handle" the situation made me just shake my head.

Those are the type of people I WOULDN'T want there, because they'd likely be the ones making a bad situation worse. I sure as hell wouldn't want an idiot like that to have my back in a firefight for sure.

You can Monday morning quarterback this incident to death.