SHARE THE ROAD! Bicycle thread

[Jamie6.5]

Those roads with bike lanes are all over PDX, and Eugene, and Salem, and Medford, and Bend, and..................

So, the Federal Highway Tax on fuel is a misnomer? Same for the State taxes on fuels?
What should they be called? And how are they NOT used for highway/DOT funding?

Higher income bracket for bike riders? What? You're the one that mentioned the downtown rental-hipsters. In Eugene they'd lynch you for that statement. Those people are PROUD to say they're low consumers.
Are you really going to claim the AVERAGE bike in PDX (or Oregon for that matter) costs $5-7,000? Seriously? Maybe you should spend some of that money on a clue!

Again, your car's fees paid for your car's use, not your bikes too. I have no bike, and I paid the same fees for my car, and my license.
Or are you saying I should get a discount because I have no bike?

The "cyclists that drive" used up the federal and state road taxes when they drove. That's why those taxes are on the consumables, like fuel taxes and excise taxes on their tires.

Your "right to go freely" where you will still exists whether you own a bike or not. you could walk. The use of the bike has been deemed by TPTB to require specialized traffic controls, and parking (bike racks) infrastructure.
You should pay for that, since you chose "to go freely" on a bike.
My right to go freely in a car requires fees, licensing insurance and road use tax.
Yet your bike is exempt, because you say it should be.
And you insist I "SHARE THE ROAD" with you and your bike, after I paid the costs.

Now who has the "it seems that way" attitude?

 

[Certaindeaf]

Since we're on the subject, since they tax alcohol and tobacco, I think they should also tax soy milk, tofu and spandex, just to be fair.

 

[The B]

Those roads with bike lanes are all over PDX, and Eugene, and Salem, and Medford, and Bend, and..................

I don't know, man. I used to ride the entire distance of Portland from Linnton, through downtown, and out the bottom into Tualatin. Some roads have narrow bike lanes, and I think bicyclists are allowed on that bus-only lane (5th?), but I just took through streets or went down Nato. I always rode in traffic, rarely encountered, let alone used a bike lane. Yea, they're painted in next to parking spots... kind of dangerous. I'd rather ride on a road with no bike lane, in traffic (going the exact same speed as everyone else), and not be forced off the edge where I can get doored or right-hooked. A WHOLE lane could be cool.. wish I knew where one existed?

So, the Federal Highway Tax on fuel is a misnomer? Same for the State taxes on fuels?
What should they be called? And how are they NOT used for highway/DOT funding?

I'm thinking you misunderstood something I said, because I have no idea what you're talking about.

Higher income bracket for bike riders? What? You're the one that mentioned the downtown rental-hipsters. In Eugene they'd lynch you for that statement. Those people are PROUD to say they're low consumers.
Are you really going to claim the AVERAGE bike in PDX (or Oregon for that matter) costs $5-7,000? Seriously? Maybe you should spend some of that money on a clue!

LOL.. what makes you think the hipster is the prevailing bike rider in this state?? You don't even ride! You have no clue who rides and who doesn't. Rarely will you see me just totally debase someones opinion- but I'm afraid you've got no credibility on this one. Portland militant hipster assjacks are a consolidated, isolated breed only found in a handful of inner-city areas in this state. The rest of us who commute in and fill the surround streets and roads are just regular dudes who love to race and ride and compete and tour and so forth.

Again, your car's fees paid for your car's use, not your bikes too. I have no bike, and I paid the same fees for my car, and my license.

Uh huh. So my car fees get all burned up on my car while it's sitting in the garage, because I'm riding in. No credit for paying those fees and then NOT using the services (once again, riding my bike on highway 30 doesn't cost anyone else a single penny. I'd have to ride the whole thing a hundred thousand times before my 23mm tires even started to put a rut in the asphalt.

Your "right to go freely" where you will still exists whether you own a bike or not. you could walk. The use of the bike has been deemed by TPTB to require specialized traffic controls, and parking (bike racks) infrastructure.
You should pay for that, since you chose "to go freely" on a bike.
My right to go freely in a car requires fees, licensing insurance and road use tax.

No, the SCOTUS has determined you don't actually have a "right" to drive a car.

Yet your bike is exempt, because you say it should be.
And you insist I "SHARE THE ROAD" with you and your bike, after I paid the costs.

Ah, nope. I paid 'em. (have we been here before?)

Now who has the "it seems that way" attitude?

Hey Ben, the "cyclists that drive" used up the federal and state road taxes when they drove. That's why those taxes are on the consumables, like fuel taxes and excise taxes on their tires.

So what happened when they left the car in the garage, and rode instead, then? Guess that car is still somehow using up road services..... sitting in the garage?

 

[greydog111]

If you hit anyone and it's established that you had the ability to stop, regardless of whether you had right-of-way, you will be held accountable for the crash. Having right-of-way is no justification for deliberately hitting someone... sheesh.

But how are you applying this sentiment to the conversation? Are you saying that if a bike is in the road, you will not follow the laws pertaining to safe negotiation? That's your prerogative... but, as you say, hopefully you know you will not win in court if the two collide.

Hey two wheeled clown monkeys. How about using turnsignals when you change lanes, I.E. go from the right side of the road to the left turn lane. You should have brake lights, tail lights, turn signals and a parking brake!

 

[greydog111]

Bike paths, lane striping and enforcement costs money. Currently DOT funds, a high percentage of which are derived from fuel taxes, are used for those things. Registrations, licensing of bikes and riders would help offset some of those costs.
Last time I checked, bicyclists don't buy fuel for their bikes.

When a transportation plan is developed by a municipality, it includes estimates for the number of cars that can move from place to place efficiently, and becomes part of the overall carrying capacity of the system. When a lane of a given street/road is sacrificed for bicycles, no compensation for the overall carrying capacity can be made without adding additional lanes elsewhere.

Despite your claims of minimal costs incurred from bicycle damage, replacing dented fenders, broken windshields, marker lights, headlights etc., and repairing scratched paint is expensive. The cost of deductible, as well as increases in premiums falls on the car owner, even when the bicyclist (who has no insurance) is at fault.

$50.00 a year bike license/road tax. It would help, eh?

 

[The B]

Hey two wheeled clown monkeys. How about using turnsignals when you change lanes, I.E. go from the right side of the road to the left turn lane.

I signal lane changes while on the bike probably about as frequently as I do in my motor vehicles- pretty much every time, but not always. Sometimes it's completely pointless- like when there's nobody else on the road. Other times, if I have to negotiate choppy road, rumble strips, reflectors, debris, etc., and it's not safe to take my hand off the handlebar to signal, I might not. And the ODOT bike manual clearly states that you should NOT signal if it's unsafe to take your hand off the handlebar.

Remember, please, that a few bad riders don't represent the rest of us. Also keep in mind that what you see doesn't tell the full story. Just like motorists make mistakes from time to time, cyclists can also. An error or miscalculation can look like foolishness or recklessness. But as the saying goes: never attribute malice where stupidity provides a better explanation.

You should have brake lights, tail lights, turn signals and a parking brake!

Why?

 

[Redcap]

$50.00 a year bike license/road tax. It would help, eh?

No one that rides a bike would pay it. Not only that, but how would one go about enforcing that dumb idea?

 

[BAMCIS]

I paid the same fees for my three cars as you did for yours. I don't know a single cyclist who doesn't drive.

Since you agree, bicycles (as a group) are subsidized, (or more bluntly, they do not pay their fair share), then how can we get them to help financing the infrastructure the rest of us, the evil carbon emitting car drivers are already paying for?

Once the true cost of operating a bicycle is realized by those who use them, there'd be a lot fewer bicycles we have to deal with.

 

[Mikej]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, ( quit reading for the most part when Ben used Jamie's name about 15 time in a post back on page four I think). There's a good chance our esteemed city council will be charging ALL households in PORTLAND $8.00-$12.00 a MONTH for improved safety on Portland streets! So, maybe a few of those households will have a rabid bike rider! Problem is, I will have to pay, even more, for their infrastructure if that happens!

Happy Happy Happy! NOT!

 

[The B]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, ( quit reading for the most part when Ben used Jamie's name about 15 time in a post back on page four I think). There's a good chance our esteemed city council will be charging ALL households in PORTLAND $8.00-$12.00 a MONTH for improved safety on Portland streets! So, maybe a few of those households will have a rabid bike rider! Problem is, I will have to pay, even more, for their infrastructure if that happens!

Happy Happy Happy! NOT!

And are you going to blame bicyclists, who could care less, or are you going to blame the geniuses that are actually doing it to you?

And did you miss the reason I used "Jamie" about a hundred times in that post?

 

[The B]

Since you agree, bicycles (as a group) are subsidized

I must not be understanding some fundamental component to this "bikes don't pay enough" argument. Please help me to understand:

How does my argument that bicyclists pay = Me agreeing that bicyclists don't pay

?

 

[BAMCIS]

I must not be understanding some fundamental component to this "bikes don't pay enough" argument. Please help me to understand:
How does my argument that bicyclists pay = Me agreeing that bicyclists don't pay
?

Ben, you must be the only one who doesn't understand. Like I said before, it is simply because you don't want to.
//

 

[The B]

Right.

Anyway...

I think I have a great hypothetical solution to this contrived problem in the minds of a select few resentful people who are annoyed by/spiteful of bicyclists, and have convinced themselves that they're paying (and even if you were paying, how much do you think you're paying? $.03 a year?) for their ability to ride:

Bikes using bike lanes, bike boxes, bike "roads (still would love to know where these are)," and public bike racks must pay a public bikes use fee. Make it ANY amount you want. Let's make it $10,000 a year... would that make you happy? To not pay the fee, all you have to do is not use those facilities.

As to road usage... Well, I guess I'm OK with paying to use roads. It's cool that I've already paid all registration fees for my cars I hope stay in my own driveway (which I also pay taxes on)... I guess I'm happy to pay a proportional fee to use my bike on public roads.

Looks like a typical car registration fee is around $110 or so?

Since a vehicles USE OF ROADS, or wear-and-tear, is directly proportional to its weight...

Average motor vehicle weight - 3500lbs?

110 / 3500 = $.03 per pound (rounding up)

So my bike, at 18lbs fully loaded would come in at... 18 x .03 = $0.54

I'll be happy to pay my FAIR SHARE of a biannual registration fee of $0.54

I will also expect larger vehicles, like diesel pickup trucks, to pay proportionally more than 4-cylinder rice-burners, since we're talking about "fair shares" and all.

Problem solved.

---

Now, back to reality.... the rest of the world doesn't agree with you. There is no public outrage to charge bicyclists, only a few grumpy people who just don't like bicyclists because of a misplaced notion that being on a bike is a precursor or indicator of an bubblegum, or type of person you just don't like.

I'm sorry, but fortunately for us, most people aren't so petty.

So give up the dream.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

Eh

 

[Jamie6.5]

Hmmm, the costs aren't imaginary Ben:
Engineering-for-better-bicycling/cost-of-bicycle-facilities

http://georgiabikes.org/files/Costs_for_Pedestrian_and_Bicycle_Improvements_2013.pdf

This database of costs is presented here for use by city planners, engineers, and other city officials. The ultimate goal of the database is to encourage bicycling and walking and to make bicycling and walking safer through the provision of relevant infrastructure. HSRC researchers hope that this cost database is used to simplify the process for implementing pedestrian and bicycle infrastructure and will help decision-makers understand the costs involved in sustaining and encouraging pedestrian and bicycle transportation. By making more informed decisions about the costs of pedestrian and bicycle infrastructure treatments, decision-makers will be able to dedicate funds to those treatments secure in the knowledge that a) these investments are often affordable and b) which treatment is the most cost-effective."

Examples:
Average cost to purchase and install a bike rack: $660
Average cost to widen road for 5' bike lanes: ~$130k/mile
Average cost to install a median refuge island: ~$13k

Elsewhere in this report it mentions the cost of bikeways, at a median cost of over $240,000 per mile, and separated bikeways at over twice that:

.Bikeways, or bike paths, are separated facilities designed specifically for bicycles (see Figure 3), while bicycle lanes are designated travel lanes for bicyclists. Separated bikeway projects typically cost between $536,664 and $4,293,320 per mile, depending on site conditions, path width, and materials used. Indicated by bike route signs, signed bike routes are used to direct bicyclists to safer facilities and/or are located on lightly trafficked roads. These types of large-scale bicycle treatments will vary greatly due to differences in project specifications and the scale and length of the treatment.

How about the bike racks previously mentioned,... $660.00 EACH.
Bike lockers? (of which PDX has dozens, possibly hundreds) Average cost of $1500.00 EACH.
Traffic diverter, $26,000 EACH.
That bicycle symbol they paint in the bike lanes? $180 EACH. There are THOUSANDS of them all over the state.

The complete table of infrastructure costs related to bicycles can be found on page 43 of the report, Pg 44 of the PDF.

Sorry Ben, but every time the biking community is allowed to raid DOT funds for "improvements," it costs the people paying the fuel and excise taxes.
Those people that don't ride are deriving little or no benefit from your hobby.
And that's not just "how it seems," that's spelled out in perfect clarity in the report linked above.

Given the kind of biking amenities PDX has scattered all over it, I'd say the cost is well up in the tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions already.

And you don't want to pay $50 annually to register your $5000-$7000 bike, and you and others claim bike riders won't pay it.

Shame on you.

 

[The B]

Hmmm, the costs aren't imaginary Ben:
Engineering-for-better-bicycling/cost-of-bicycle-facilities

http://georgiabikes.org/files/Costs_for_Pedestrian_and_Bicycle_Improvements_2013.pdf

Elsewhere in this report it mentions the cost of bikeways, at a median cost of over $240,000 per mile, and separated bikeways at over twice that:

How about the bike racks previously mentioned,... $660.00 EACH.
Bike lockers? (of which PDX has dozens, possibly hundreds) Average cost of $1500.00 EACH.
Traffic diverter, $26,000 EACH.
That bicycle symbol they paint in the bike lanes? $180 EACH. There are THOUSANDS of them all over the state.

The complete table of infrastructure costs related to bicycles can be found on page 43 of the report, Pg 44 of the PDF.

Sorry Ben, but every time the biking community is allowed to raid DOT funds for "improvements," it costs the people paying the fuel and excise taxes.
Those people that don't ride are deriving little or no benefit from your hobby.
And that's not just "how it seems," that's spelled out in perfect clarity in the report linked above.

Given the kind of biking amenities PDX has scattered all over it, I'd say the cost is well up in the tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions already.

And you don't want to pay $50 annually to register your $5000-$7000 bike, and you and others claim bike riders won't pay it.

Shame on you.

Hmmm, the costs aren't imaginary Ben:
Engineering-for-better-bicycling/cost-of-bicycle-facilities

http://georgiabikes.org/files/Costs_for_Pedestrian_and_Bicycle_Improvements_2013.pdf

Elsewhere in this report it mentions the cost of bikeways, at a median cost of over $240,000 per mile, and separated bikeways at over twice that:

How about the bike racks previously mentioned,... $660.00 EACH.
Bike lockers? (of which PDX has dozens, possibly hundreds) Average cost of $1500.00 EACH.
Traffic diverter, $26,000 EACH.
That bicycle symbol they paint in the bike lanes? $180 EACH. There are THOUSANDS of them all over the state.

The complete table of infrastructure costs related to bicycles can be found on page 43 of the report, Pg 44 of the PDF.

Sorry Ben, but every time the biking community is allowed to raid DOT funds for "improvements," it costs the people paying the fuel and excise taxes.
Those people that don't ride are deriving little or no benefit from your hobby.
And that's not just "how it seems," that's spelled out in perfect clarity in the report linked above.

Given the kind of biking amenities PDX has scattered all over it, I'd say the cost is well up in the tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions already.

And you don't want to pay $50 annually to register your $5000-$7000 bike, and you and others claim bike riders won't pay it.

Shame on you.

Look, dude.. I'm not going to entertain you if you're going to obfuscate to continue to try to support this pathetically weak and unpopular opinion of yours. "Biking community is allowed to raid...?" Are you kidding? Do you think hipsters are kicking the doors of ODOT in and demanding money for bike lanes? Do you think there's some powerful Road Rider's lobby with millions to bribe legislators into allocating funds to bike projects? How have you manufactured this "raid?" What does it look like?

The cities that are doing all of this are doing it as infrastructure work to make the cities more pleasant, be progressive, and attract tourism and tax-payers. They're not doing it because bicyclists have dirty pictures of them with hookers in sleazy motel rooms. Hipsters aren't politically active- they're anti-culture, nor do they have lobbying funds, nor do they like bike lanes anyway. Road riders could care less either way (me). Most commuters don't actually ride enough for it to matter. I guess maybe MOMS might occasionally make an argument for bike lanes under the false impression is keeps their children safer (the same children you think should have "bike licenses," lol).

 

[The B]

Keep your arguments as plausible as possible, please.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Look, dude.. I'm not going to entertain you if you're going to <snip>

Look "dude," you accused me of making up numbers for the costs of bike infrastructure when you made your "It seems to you" comment.
I just backed up my claims with hard numbers for what biking really cost a community.
If you want to write those costs off as something that doesn't really matter, or something that you believe "improves" a community, and the DOT (that is funded by fuel taxes) that's your business.
But don't try to tell us all that those costs aren't real. And the next time you read that funding comes from a grant from the state and federal transportation departments, don't act like that money is growing on trees. Fuel buyers lined those coffers.

All you have done since I entered this discussion is prove that you really didn't want to have an honest discussion at all.
What you really wanted to do was try to paint bicycling in as positive a light as possible, without discussing the downside for the average taxpayer, and/or the average commuter. Especially where transportation dollars are concerned, and the fact that bike riders don't pay for them.

It's clear that the bicycling community has firmly entrenched themselves in the ranks of the entitlement generation.
And all you have done here is promote your campaign to become its poster child.

Should you ever decide to really have an "honest conversation" about this topic, feel free to refer to my posts.
The facts are there.

 

[The B]

Nope.

OBVIOUSLY building bike infrastructure costs money (if an infinitesimally small percentage of the overall roads budget). You're trying to imply that's money bicyclists are spending, when, as I explained, that's money OTHER PEOPLE are deciding to spend, and claiming is on our behalf.

Once again (holy crap I have to repeat myself a lot) - you're misdirecting your resent. Go talk to the people spending the money, and tell them NOT to.

Unlike my hypothetical problem solved above, this really WOULD solve the problem.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Oh man, I think this is gonna be a fun thread.
<snip>
Oregon is great for bike riding. We are one of the only states I'm aware of that actually has a Bike Lane Board- a legislatively mandated council of legislators, legal professionals, and bikers, who oversee all bike lane issues in the state. They oversee ALL bike lanes in the state and ensure they're safe and appropriate for the areas they're being designated. As such, we also have an ordnance that requires bicyclists <snip>
Let 'er rip!

You're talking out both sides of your mouth Ben. You must be running for office.
That quote is a part of what you started with, and now you're claiming bikers neither want nor need those bike lanes/facilities/infrastructure, and that the money spent has been done so by others, and not at your and your fellow riders' behest.

So much for "let 'er rip" eh?

Y'all are a demanding bunch.
Demand the money, demand the inconvenience of drivers, demand the laws, demand that we accept you and your traffic hazard ways, and then demand that we go elsewhere to voice our displeasure, after you post an invitation for discussion.
You should apply for a job with the DNC.


Have a nice day.