Shame on you pierce county sheriff!

[R-Rizzo]

Did I miss the part where he was arrested and or charged with any crime? As for calling in additional officers, contact was made with an uncooperative and armed individual. It would seem as though the initial contact officer was merely playing it safe. Was the open carrier drawn down on, cuffed or struck? I fail to see where any harm was done.

I do not think that there is any way to bridge the gap between the 2 factions here. There are those of us that want to go unnoticed, we carry concealed. And there are those that want all the world to know the have a gun, and they end up on TV.

I do have one piece of advice to the open carry guys, use a holster with at least one or two levels of retention. I recently stood behind a guy in a Spanaway gas station carrying a full size Glock in a Bladetech paddle holster with no retention devices. Had I wanted to take his gun it would have been mine. The guy did not even seem to know there was anyone standing behind him. You need to always be aware of your surroundings, even more so when you open carry.

I never said he was cuffed and stuffed. IMHO, this isn't really an Open Carry vs Concealed Carry issue. (I'll admit that if he had chosen to CC, then the incident would have never happened, but alas that is not the point.) This is an issue of those who are responsible w/ enforcing law making rules up as they go along.

Again, in my very humble opinion, what it boils down to is that you cannot require a citizen who is not suspected of a crime to produce ID. No matter how politely you ask, or how good your intentions are. It doesn't matter if they are Open Carrying, Wearing a T-Shirt denouncing a certain race or sexual preference, Dancing a Jig Down the Sidewalk, or Wearing a Tin Foil hat.

People have the right to go about their peaceful, lawful business without unnecessary and unlawful intrusion from the Govt. Wether it be Local, State, or Federal. Now your vision of "unnecessary" may be different from mine, and mine may be different from the next guy. But unlawful has been decided along time and there is plenty of case law to back it up.

This is along the same lines of searching a vehicle after a traffic stop. You get pulled over for a tail light out or a minor traffic infraction which the Officer has every right and duty to do. An officer politely asks you to search your vehicle. 90% of the people out there (Even the criminals) will say yes, sure go ahead. "I have nothing to hide" However you have the other 10% who feel that the search of their vehicle without a warrant, or probable cause is a violation of their rights and refuse.

We have choices to make. And how we decide to act in those choices is a factor of many things. The environment where we grew, our parents, and tons of other factors that make us who we are as individuals.

One thing that does bother me is that it seems lately that as soon as someone stands up and says, "No, this isn't right" "They" are not allowed to do that. That person seems to be immediately branded an "Attention Seeker, or a Fundamentalist, or a Conspiracy Theorist" etc etc.

Really, in the end, be responsible for your actions. Conduct yourself in a lawful, civilized manner.

If you dont know what you are talking about regarding a certain subject, dont speak on it.

(<----Caught this in the Edit, FTR this is not directed at you Stumps so I hope you don't take it that way. This is just something that I try to live by and one of the core values I try to instill in my children. IMHO opinion too often people spout off non-sense that they pass off as fact, when it is about as far from it as you can get. But then again they also have a Constitutionally Protected right to make themselves look like idiots.

Make sure you go home to your family safe every night. Everything else is just details.

And for the love of god. However you choose to carry, JUST MAKE SURE YOU CARRY.

I do have one piece of advice to the open carry guys, use a holster with at least one or two levels of retention. I recently stood behind a guy in a Spanaway gas station carrying a full size Glock in a Bladetech paddle holster with no retention devices. Had I wanted to take his gun it would have been mine. The guy did not even seem to know there was anyone standing behind him. You need to always be aware of your surroundings, even more so when you open carry.

And on a completely different track. I cannot begin to express how much I agree with this. If you choose to Open Carry, secure your weapon. And please maintain good Situational Awareness. It will 9 times out of 10 keep you from ever having to draw your firearm in the first place.

 

[gunnoob75]

The officers seem quite reasonable. They were respectful, they calmly explained the situation, etc.

I do not know if they had a right to ask for his I.D., legally speaking. But the officers were not being rude, so I guess I don't see what the big deal is.

I say good on the officers for handling the situation professionally.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

All I have to add is my personal police procedure.

1)SIT DOWN. I learned this from a friend who weighs around 300lbs and stands about 6'6". As soon as a police begins to talk to you, not just casually but questioning you, SIT DOWN and they relax a lot. I have personally seen this get guns back into their holsters in a tense situation.

2)BE POLITE. Yes, sir. No, sir.

3)RESPECT. Never say, suggest, act like, or even infer in any possible way that you know the law better than they do. Doesn't matter. If they think you think you're smarter than they are (even if you obviously are), any police will take that personally.

4)LAWYER UP. That is, if you are doing something illegal, or feel like being a martyr.

5)JUST BE WHO HE WANTS TO PROTECT

6) Keep your answers short:

"yessa massa"

"nosa massa"

"thankya massa"

7) Dont look them in the eye... that is a sign of aggression.

8) If they tell you your name is Toby, your name is Toby.


Bubblegum that
If that's what police protection means to you, then keep it...

The officers seem quite reasonable. They were respectful, they calmly explained the situation, etc.

I do not know if they had a right to ask for his I.D., legally speaking. But the officers were not being rude, so I guess I don't see what the big deal is.

I say good on the officers for handling the situation professionally.

They may have violated his rights, but they did it with a wink and a smile, and that makes them professionals in your book.

simply pathetic

 

[riverrat373]

6) They may have violated his rights, but they did it with a wink and a smile, and that makes them professionals in your book.

simply pathetic

What's pathetic are people who think the boogy man is hiding around every corner.

 

[Riot]

IT IS ABOUT RESPECT

They had a lunatic open fire on 4 of their colleges.
The open carry guy is a total jerk,now that I have listened to him.
4 of their fellow officers are dead,why not show a little respect for these guys and just go out side and talk.
'Hey I know you lost some fellow officers,but it is legal to open carry in this state,blah blah blah'
'Heck I even have a copy of the laws right here'

I would bet that if they felt threatened they could have done more.And after listening to that freak,they probably did feel threatened

I wouldn't want you behind me with a gun,or that freeking idiot.I would have told him to just act like an adult and show the ID.

This is stupid and being rehashed in 2 or 3 threads already.
Is this all you guys have to do is harass cops?
Then go home and whine about how long their response time is?

You guy are just getting pathetic,quoting articles and laws and not seeing the big picture.
You all will ultimately be the ones who get more gun control laws passed.The reason Seattle hate guns
Make us all look like a bunch of cowards and kids that didn't get enough attention as a child so we "Open Carry".

You can't educate the ignorant that choose ignorance over common sense.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

What's pathetic are people who think the boogy man is hiding around every corner.

That's almost as pathetic as people with Anablephobia.

Poster children for abortion I tells yah.


Agateophobia.... It'll drive you crazy

 

[riverrat373]

I have no problem looking up.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

I have no problem looking up.

Thank god... I dont know how anyone could live like that

 

[gogoDawgs]

I've listened to the audio and my first question is, did the officer give permission to be audio recorded? In Washington State, audio recording requires consent by the recorder and the recorded. And I don't believe that officer gave consent, at least in the recording or the posts I've read so far. I know this because I went to talk to a lawyer for the very reason of a police interaction while open carrying.

While rights are important to stand up for, if you want to just give a verbal name, the officers have the right to detain you for up to 3 days to figure out who you are. What do you gain by sitting in a cell for three days? If you want to be a anal about being violated, perhaps you should sit in a cell. If you're acting in such a way with a police officer, do you think that officer will extend himself in a rapid manner to identify you? I know I wouldn't.

And those officers were very polite and patient with you.

No. first the audio was recorded to an I-Phone. It was done without the officers consent. No consent is needed when recording a public official in a public space while the official is doing there performed duties.

<broken link removed>

Furthermore, the officers do not have the right to detain you for 3 days, UNLESS you are being charged with a crime.

RCW 7.80.060: Person receiving notice ? Identification and detention.

You might want you and your attorney to examine these laws and cases. Until then and until you can prove what you say I suggest you read and learn.

Open carriers seem to be attention seekers. While I am not against the idea I find it odd that they seem to enjoy provoking incidents with the police. Not aggressively, but more passively aggressive. I know a lot of guys in law enforcement, good guys. One thing I notice in all the people I know in law enforcement, not one of them open carries off duty in public. If the cops all have it wrong and are so evil I am wondering why more people here do not apply and do it right. It is easy to snipe from behind the keyboard. You may truly only open carry to defend yourself and deter attacks, but how about cutting the guys that respond when you call for help some slack.

Being asked for ID is not being detained or being denied a right, it is merely being asked a question.

Listen to the audio, he was not "asked", the contact was not social nor consenual. No law was alleged to be violated or broken, therefore the citizen has the perogitive to have no conversation with the officer. Every OCer I know, and I know them all, supports law enforcement. And Tom was having his break like he has everyday at the same store, without incident.

There in lies the "Rub". If you are not being detained, and merely being asked a question, then you have every right not to answer the question or really acknowledge the LEO in anyway shape or form.

He was not asked a question, listen to the audio, he was demanded it, with no law alledged to be broken.

 

[gogoDawgs]

The officers seem quite reasonable. They were respectful, they calmly explained the situation, etc.

I do not know if they had a right to ask for his I.D., legally speaking. But the officers were not being rude, so I guess I don't see what the big deal is.

I say good on the officers for handling the situation professionally.

Of course they do, they are trained to do so, they are trained to get you to voluntarily get you to give up your 4th and 5th amendment rights.

But how would you feel if one officer called 3 more officers to ask you questions when you were doing nothing but having a cup of coffee? Joe, you are a male and therefore equipted to be a rapist, so they need to ID you to make sure you are not a felon.

 

[CounterOfBeans]

I also don't see what the big deal is about showing them your ID. Why do you wanna be a jerk off to a cop? Do you think it's gunna get you anywhere? That's like you trying to do your JOB, and somebody else, say your customer, it just being a dick, making your day hard. Are you gunna give that person a "special deal" you could have? NO. Quit being little tools and just work with them. They are not just going to change there ways because everybody refuses to coperate. Cops have more power than you, your gunna get the short end of the stick if you try and be a tuff guy, right or wrong. Some of you are WAY to into your "rights". If he would have shown it to him, he'd still have his rights, and his coffee, now he just has a wasted day at the police station. What a D-Bag.

Tell that to all those in our military that died to make sure we kept those rights. Oh that's right you can't.

 

[riverrat373]

The last thing that I have to say on this subject, if you open carry and refuse to show your ID to a LEO, expect some grief. It doesn't matter whether the LEO has a right to ask you for ID or not. It's going to happen. If any of you out there feel like testing this issue in court, I would be interested in the outcome, so please let us know. Oh, please let us know also how much your court battle cost too!

 

[mjbskwim]

The last thing that I have to say on this subject, if you open carry and refuse to show your ID to a LEO, expect some grief. It doesn't matter whether the LEO has a right to ask you for ID or not. It's going to happen. If any of you out there feel like testing this issue in court, I would be interested in the outcome, so please let us know. Oh, please let us know also how much your court battle cost too!

I'm guessing you,as I do,believe,even if you win, after a $5k+ court battle you have still lost?

I know I can't convince y'all otherwise,but I will always believe,and see you guys as the kid who got picked on in school and couldn't make the police force.

Hey at least the police passed the tests.

Go back to you keyboards now

 

[Father of four]

,but I will always believe,and see you guys as the kid who got picked on in school and couldn't make the police force.

Hey at least the police passed the tests.

Go back to you keyboards now

What? Insulting people because they chose to OC? :huh:

 

[Wenis]

No. first the audio was recorded to an I-Phone. It was done without the officers consent. No consent is needed when recording a public official in a public space while the official is doing there performed duties.

You might want you and your attorney to examine these laws and cases. Until then and until you can prove what you say I suggest you read and learn.

RCW 9.73.030
Intercepting, recording, or divulging private communication — Consent required — Exceptions.

(1) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, it shall be unlawful for any individual, partnership, corporation, association, or the state of Washington, its agencies, and political subdivisions to intercept, or record any:

(b) Private conversation, by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record or transmit such conversation regardless how the device is powered or actuated without first obtaining the consent of all the persons engaged in the conversation.

(3) Where consent by all parties is needed pursuant to this chapter, consent shall be considered obtained whenever one party has announced to all other parties engaged in the communication or conversation, in any reasonably effective manner, that such communication or conversation is about to be recorded or transmitted: PROVIDED, That if the conversation is to be recorded that said announcement shall also be recorded.


Read and learn yourself.

 

[gogoDawgs]

RCW 9.73.030
Intercepting, recording, or divulging private communication — Consent required — Exceptions.

(1) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, it shall be unlawful for any individual, partnership, corporation, association, or the state of Washington, its agencies, and political subdivisions to intercept, or record any:

(b) Private conversation, by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record or transmit such conversation regardless how the device is powered or actuated without first obtaining the consent of all the persons engaged in the conversation.

(3) Where consent by all parties is needed pursuant to this chapter, consent shall be considered obtained whenever one party has announced to all other parties engaged in the communication or conversation, in any reasonably effective manner, that such communication or conversation is about to be recorded or transmitted: PROVIDED, That if the conversation is to be recorded that said announcement shall also be recorded.


Read and learn yourself.

Read the lawsuit that refers to a conversation with a public official!!! Read it!

Because the exchange was not private, its recording could not violate RCW 9.73.030
which applies to private conversations only. We decline the State's invitation to transform
the privacy act into a sword available for use against individuals by public officers acting
in their official capacity. The trial court erred in denying Flora's motion to dismiss.
Flora's conviction is reversed and the case dismissed.
COLEMAN and PEKELIS, JJ., concur.

<broken link removed>

 

[mjbskwim]

What? Insulting people because they chose to OC? :huh:

Noooo,

because they choose to argue with police,instead of just making us all look better by cooperating with them.

I open carry in the woods or places where I feel it won't BRING ATTENTION TO ME,cause I had enough when I was a kid.

I don't carry where the police had their brothers GUNNED DOWN,just out of respect,ya know.

But alas,I was taught respect and was given enough attention as a kid so I don't need to bring any more to myself by open carrying.

This isn't the 1800s
Just as these gentlemen on here haven't backed down on the issue of the guy's 4th amendment right,the other side sees this and will show this as a bunch of cowboys getting attention.
That's all.
Now if they had just went outside,like I have stated before,and talked to the police,showing them they were capable of getting a CCP,and were upstanding,COOPERATIVE citizens,NOT looking for attention,pulled out copies of the laws to share with the LEOs,they would have brought us a lot more fans

Instead,they acted like little kids and brought us more enemies.

That is the point that is being missed.Nothing to do with what rights were infringed upon.
Just the fact that they could have handled it better and came out shining bright to the LEOs.

Again,they got the 15 minutes of fame they desired.

 

[Wenis]

Reading...

 

[Wenis]

From what I gather, this guy recorded a police officer without consent and was arrested and charged on the RCW code listed above. He went to district court and made an appeal, which was denied and he remained charged with a crime. He took it to the state supreme court, was denied and remained charged with a crime. He then took it to a third court to which the charges were reversed and dismissed.

This guy was arrested, charged with a crime and went through three court cases until he could get the charge reversed. And yet the RCW code still reads the same way without an exception, and that was back in 1992.

I promise you will still be arrested and charged for recording an officer if you pull that crap, all while citing case law in the back of a crown vic.

 

[Father of four]

OK, I think that OCing is a right and should not be infringed.
I do think a LEO has the right to ask for your name so he/she can check you out if he sees you carrying, OC or Concealed. (Even when concealed people sometimes get a peek.)
I think being polite to an Officer is the best way to go. Being respectfully and polite to people is how I was raised.
I myself may not stay respectful with a rude Officer though. Respect is a two way street to me. If you disrespect me dont think you deserve my respect.I am a grown man who is not a criminal.
If I was OCing and LEO wanted to see my ID I would hand it over. I have nothing to hide.
BUT I do not think it's OK for the LEO's to ask for your ID just because you chose not to answer a question. Officers can and have used the "Show me your ID/Can I see your ID" just to mess with people or "Show them who is Boss". And then arrest a person for no good reason except for them not showing the Officer the respect he thinks he deserved.
To me its just like a judge being called "Your Honor". Yeah right. I have seen, read or heard about more then a few Judges that are not honorable and who do not deserve to be called "Your Honor".

I think the Guy and the Officers that were involved acted just fine. It to me was the guy's right to not want to be messed with. (He was detained.) He was not free to go. But it is also the right of the Officer to ask for a person to identify themselves and check to see if everything is alright.