Washington Shaking My Head

[Xaevian]

@leadcounsel I sincerely appreciate the efforts you made while you were here. I really do. But I think your broad brush comments are doing some real damage and making it harder to motivate some fence sitters to actively participate in the fight. Instead of suggesting "it's never going to happen, so get out while you can", maybe start with "see what can happen if you don't start now". Is this struggle frustrating? Yes. Will there be setbacks? Yes. Will we lose battles? Yes, again. We need to be in this for the long haul, the strategic game. Learn from our losses and plan a counter move instead of getting discouraged.

Let's make the antis shake THEIR heads...together.

 

[leadcounsel]

@leadcounsel I sincerely appreciate the efforts you made while you were here. I really do. But I think your broad brush comments are doing some real damage and making it harder to motivate some fence sitters to actively participate in the fight. Instead of suggesting "it's never going to happen, so get out while you can", maybe start with "see what can happen if you don't start now". Is this struggle frustrating? Yes. Will there be setbacks? Yes. Will we lose battles? Yes, again. We need to be in this for the long haul, the strategic game. Learn from our losses and plan a counter move instead of getting discouraged.

Let's make the antis shake THEIR heads...together.

Good luck to you behind enemy lines. I'm rooting for you! Trump has flipped the 9th Circuit, so hopefully the Courts can offer some tangible wins. The SAF does great work and wins important cases, so that's a great asset. I would encourage everyone to donate to the SAF, the grunts in the trenches.

As for me and my life and career, I'm not willing to turn in my stuff, nor register it, nor risk becoming a felon for possessing otherwise legal items. These are real struggles and decisions everyone there will soon face so I can't fault anyone for leaving like I did. People aren't voting, so without voting the choices are felon, disarmed, shedding blood, or leaving.

 

[Kruel J]

......so without voting the choices are felon, disarmed, shedding blood, or leaving.

I don't think the BOR needs to be voted on, but you are on point that NOT voting is irresponsible and dismissive.


What happens when there are no more places to run to? Running away is cowardly and temporary. Not pointing that at you.

 

[leadcounsel]

I don't think the BOR needs to be voted on, but you are on point that NOT voting is irresponsible and dismissive.


What happens when there are no more places to run to? Running away is cowardly and temporary. Not pointing that at you.

I've heard that position before and it simply demonstrates a failure to understand history. Most famously, were our forefathers who left Europe "cowards?" I think not. They made intelligent informed decision to leave oppression to make a better life. They elected moving versus living under tyranny. Seems logical. And it worked out well.

Moving within the US is not "running away" and such a notion is silly. People move all the time for a number of personal, liberty, career, or financial reasons. I'm a US Army combat veteran and paratrooper who served on active jump status for over 2 years, with four OIF combat deployments, and I've conquered a dozen professional hurdles that took dedication and courage. Suggesting I'm a coward (not saying you are) because I moved away from an oppressive state where there were no other realistic options only demonstrates ignorance of history and reality.

Saying "there will be nowhere to run" is a defeatist pessimistic attitude. The purpose for moving is to buy time so hopefully the various pro-gun states and the federal government and hopefully the pro-Constitution Courts to catch up and enforce with great authority the 2A nationwide. That is the trend in the Courts (Trump is stacking them pretty effectively to fix them), Trump will probably get another 4 year term to continue this trend, and the SCOTUS caselaw has been favorable to the 2A (Heller, McDonald, and other cases). So I'm a betting man and think in the long term, the 2A wins.

The problem is that short term window (say 5-10 years). I want to live my life, and do all the things in my life that involve guns and community. I don't want to become a felon because I possess banned pieces of plastic. Seems like the obvious solution is to move, so that short window is one of freedom, and the long term resolution is probably 2A favorable.

And if not, well, I picked the most or one of the most 2A favorable state in the nation. So I guess if Idaho falls, the nation is screwed because everywhere else has fallen. And I suspect a civil war would precede that point.

 

[Kruel J]

I've heard that position before and it simply demonstrates a failure to understand history. Most famously, were our forefathers who left Europe "cowards?" I think not. They made intelligent informed decision to leave oppression to make a better life. They elected moving versus living under tyranny. Seems logical. And it worked out well.

Moving within the US is not "running away" and such a notion is silly. People move all the time for a number of personal, liberty, career, or financial reasons. I'm a US Army combat veteran and paratrooper who served on active jump status for over 2 years, with four OIF combat deployments, and I've conquered a dozen professional hurdles that took dedication and courage. Suggesting I'm a coward (not saying you are) because I moved away from an oppressive state where there were no other realistic options only demonstrates ignorance of history and reality.

Saying "there will be nowhere to run" is a defeatist pessimistic attitude. The purpose for moving is to buy time so hopefully the various pro-gun states and the federal government and hopefully the pro-Constitution Courts to catch up and enforce with great authority the 2A nationwide. That is the trend in the Courts (Trump is stacking them pretty effectively to fix them), Trump will probably get another 4 year term to continue this trend, and the SCOTUS caselaw has been favorable to the 2A (Heller, McDonald, and other cases). So I'm a betting man and think in the long term, the 2A wins.

The problem is that short term window (say 5-10 years). I want to live my life, and do all the things in my life that involve guns and community. I don't want to become a felon because I possess banned pieces of plastic. Seems like the obvious solution is to move, so that short window is one of freedom, and the long term resolution is probably 2A favorable.

And if not, well, I picked the most or one of the most 2A favorable state in the nation. So I guess if Idaho falls, the nation is screwed because everywhere else has fallen. And I suspect a civil war would precede that point.

Your service is appreciated. My point was that moving from state to state chasing 2A sanctuaries or fleeing local tyranny isn't going to work forever.


And one isn't a felon unless convicted. I read somewhere that the average citizen commits like 2-3 "felonies" a day? Unintentionally of course. I get tired of people saying they will be a felon if a new law gets passed because that is completely inaccurate.

 

[GWS]

[

I'd like to think all here on NWFA are some of the strongest 2A supporters in our respective communities and coming here to rail against the apathetic & uneducated, something that we already know is rather pointless. Whether you chose to fight where you stand or move to fight elsewhere, why not encourage others to continue the fight as it would seem to make more sense.

You get more flies with honey, then with vinegar...or so I've been told.

I dunno... I see lots of flies on poop. Maybe I should have given those 2 guys a big ration of poop. At least to make them know that their getting informed and voting CAN make a difference. Possibly make THE difference. Shaking my head only makes an annoying rattle.

I don't think the BOR needs to be voted on, but you are on point that NOT voting is irresponsible and dismissive.


What happens when there are no more places to run to? Running away is cowardly and temporary. Not pointing that at you.

I "ran" (well, drove at high speed) from California. Gun rights were far from the only reason we left but for me they were a big reason. From my perspective, WA gun laws were Wahoo Freedom! and I certainly have pumped a lot of money into the local economy via my gun and ammo purchases since I arrived. I also was delighted to see the level of involvement for gun rights in the Vancouver area. There were 10 times more people at the Anti-1639 meeting at the Hilton than I ever saw at any rights meeting that I attended in San Jose CA. And San Jose has a population of over a million vs Vancouver's 150,000! Getting out of a bad place in favor of a better place isn't cowardly at all. It's common sense. If you aren't happy where you are, then Change your situation!
If @leadcounsel was no longer happy here, then he (or she) did the right thing. Why be miserable where you are if you can change it?
For myself I am not tickled with the way gun laws are going here in Washington, but they are still a helluva lot better than where I came from and I like to think my vote and efforts will count for more up here than they ever did back in the PRK . My only issue with Washington has been finding really good Mexican and Chinese food.
I love it here!

 

[Kruel J]

[
I dunno... I see lots of flies on poop. Maybe I should have given those 2 guys a big ration of poop. At least to make them know that their getting informed and voting CAN make a difference. Possibly make THE difference. Shaking my head only makes an annoying rattle.


I "ran" (well, drove at high speed) from California. Gun rights were far from the only reason we left but for me they were a big reason. From my perspective, WA gun laws were Wahoo Freedom! and I certainly have pumped a lot of money into the local economy via my gun and ammo purchases since I arrived. I also was delighted to see the level of involvement for gun rights in the Vancouver area. There were 10 times more people at the Anti-1639 meeting at the Hilton than I ever saw at any rights meeting that I attended in San Jose CA. And San Jose has a population of over a million vs Vancouver's 150,000! Getting out of a bad place in favor of a better place isn't cowardly at all. It's common sense. If you aren't happy where you are, then Change your situation!
If @leadcounsel was no longer happy here, then he (or she) did the right thing. Why be miserable where you are if you can change it?
For myself I am not tickled with the way gun laws are going here in Washington, but they are still a helluva lot better than where I came from and I like to think my vote and efforts will count for more up here than they ever did back in the PRK . My only issue with Washington has been finding really good Mexican and Chinese food.
I love it here!

I'm all for making moves that make you happy. I am not, however, all for making the move then disparaging others that stay.

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

Here in Oregon a TON of non "gun guys" still have no clue about the BGC law and offer to buy/sell/trade not knowing there is a law preventing such a thing.
So just what good does it do when criminals and the clueless sell amongst themselves?

They cannot tell me BGC laws arent simply harassment against firearms enthusiasts. Thats all it really is.

 

[Kruel J]

IF I end up moving, it's not over politics or gun laws or anything else. It's because I miss Idaho. I too have lived in many states and Idaho was my favorite, long before the 2A fight escalated.

 

[leadcounsel]

Your service is appreciated. My point was that moving from state to state chasing 2A sanctuaries or fleeing local tyranny isn't going to work forever.


And one isn't a felon unless convicted. I read somewhere that the average citizen commits like 2-3 "felonies" a day? Unintentionally of course. I get tired of people saying they will be a felon if a new law gets passed because that is completely inaccurate.

You'll pardon me if I ignore legal advice dispensed from a non-lawyer with nothing at stake on the interwebs...

There are now so many complex gun laws and pending bills it takes a full time job just to keep up. My local gun store there had to work overtime just to try to interpret the laws, many of which are still quite vague. People can easily unwittingly break the law and get pinched, or get pinched for ignoring it. For instance, say it becomes illegal to own 11+ capacity rounds. Your gun is a 15 round capacity. So what are you going to do? Limited options. Say you "ignore it" given your careless legal advice above, and are involved in a SD shooting, and charged with a crime because your gun had a 11+ round magazine. Now your lawful shooting lands you a criminal charge... Or you ignore the law against private transfers, and the other party dimes you out and you have the authorities at your doorstep with a search warrant and they seize ALL your guns and mags. Better hope you aren't in violation.... looking at a lot of felonies if you are.

I'm a long-time trial attorney, currently a criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, former magistrate. Please don't tell me to ignore serious laws because I simply understand the system.

 

[Kruel J]

You'll pardon me if I ignore legal advice dispensed from a non-lawyer with nothing at stake on the interwebs...

There are now so many complex gun laws and pending bills it takes a full time job just to keep up. My local gun store there had to work overtime just to try to interpret the laws, many of which are still quite vague. People can easily unwittingly break the law and get pinched, or get pinched for ignoring it. For instance, say it becomes illegal to own 11+ capacity rounds. Your gun is a 15 round capacity. So what are you going to do? Limited options. Say you "ignore it" given your careless legal advice above, and are involved in a SD shooting, and charged with a crime because your gun had a 11+ round magazine. Now your lawful shooting lands you a criminal charge... Or you ignore the law against private transfers, and the other party dimes you out and you have the authorities at your doorstep with a search warrant and they seize ALL your guns and mags. Better hope you aren't in violation.... looking at a lot of felonies if you are.

I'm a long-time trial attorney, currently a criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, former magistrate. Please don't tell me to ignore serious laws because I simply understand the system.

I didn't tell you or anyone else to ignore anything. Nor did I give any legal advice.




Please stop quoting me and I'll do the same. Ok?

 

[Jcon268]

At a local gun shop today when 2 guys come in, one selling his AR to the other. Both seemed shocked about 1639 and the law requiring the buyer to get his class and the 10 day wait.
All I'm thinking is "This is why 1639 passed."
I'm guessing they didn't know/care or whatever
Maybe 2 votes wouldn't change anything but how many more gun owners didn't bother to learn the issues and let this stuff pass.

Like I said...
Shaking my head.

Most people are the victims of their own ignorance. It's just cool to own guns but not actually go shoot them, learn about them, learn about the laws surrounding them or be involved in the community of advocates.

 

[Diamondback]

My usual comeback:
"Did you fill out Form 4473? You're on A LIST. Do you have a carry permit? On A LIST. NRA Member? A LIST. Subscribe to a gun mag? LIST. You're already IN THEIR CROSSHAIRS, might as well do SOMETHING to fight back... or do you intend to just wait for Waffen-FBI and Totenkopf-ATF to bring Kristallnacht to your door?"

Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust--if you don't take it out and use it, it's going to rust. (In this context, I mean all your Constitutional rights--not trying to go Lexington/Concord.)

 

[deadeye]

You'll pardon me if I ignore legal advice dispensed from a non-lawyer with nothing at stake on the interwebs...

I'm a long-time trial attorney, currently a criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, former magistrate. Please don't tell me to ignore serious laws because I simply understand the system.

And you'll pardon the rest of us who don't believe everything that is posted on those interwebs.........

 

[Tinman357]

leadcounsel

I attempted to send you a private message and failed. Can you please contact me via private message?

 

[gmerkt]

Rest of Washington - 5.5 million

Snohomish County, nearly as far left as King Co., population estimated 815,000 but getting closer to 1 million. You can put lots of those gun control votes in the yes column.

seems it was blue long before the dot com burst,

As in the IWW "Wobblies," big riot in Everett, WA in 1916. Washington was long known as "the Little Soviet." In 1936, Jim Farley, FDR's postmaster general, said, "There are 47 states in the Union and the Soviet of Washington." Before Silicon Valley existed.

You're on A LIST. Do you have a carry permit? On A LIST.

If you've ever bought a handgun through a dealer in Wash., you are on an official list.

Washington is the easiest state to vote in.

It's a joke. One argument against checking ID, is requiring people to present a driver's license is like a poll tax. They have to pay to obtain the license. Which nearly everybody would already obtain anyway for its basic purpose.

Seattle is 80% CA transplants

Might be a couple from China, a couple from Korea, a few from Somalia and several from The Gambia. Yes, The Gambia, I've met many. It's a tiny country in West Africa, completely surrounded by Senegal. Boundaries a legacy from colonial days. But it's gotten to be a joke between me and them. My schtick is, "If so many of you are now here, who's back home making sure Senegal doesn't take over?" They laugh, they love it here, hard working people.

 

[Tony617]

Then when you vote you have check if you are.a republican or Democrat which should not be required at all in Washington State. Probably the Republican ballots would be lost or mysteriously shredded.

 

[bikemutt]

I think it's important to keep in mind that when WA makes it "easy to vote", that applies to everyone, not just gun owners. There's virtually nothing in life which favors one group over another that lasts very long. It's the same thing with time; if only we had more time, more time is more time for everyone, including those who dislike guns for any reason.

The big problem is getting people to vote in the first place; an unmailed ballot doesn't count. I find it hard to believe anyone who owns even one gun, or enjoys any aspect of the shooting sports would vote a ballot and check the box in favor of more stupid gun control laws.

Finally, I lived in E WA from 1999 to 2019, if anyone thinks they are all gun-loving conservatives, guess again. Many are, many are not.

 

[American123]

As a lifelong West Seattle resident, it's interesting to see points of view on this topic. Just like so many topics of discussion, pointing the finger at one reason is always simplistic in nature and might be part of the cause, but never the entirety.

Lot's of things have eroded Washington state, big city politics is definitely one of them, but it's merely a symptom of the problem. Look deeper - stupid/lame kids fed propaganda and not taught to actually think become stupid/lame adults who don't know how to think and follow politicians blindly. It's no surprise, I could have told you 20 years ago things were going to get worse based on the types of kids I went to school with.

In my 30 years on this planet I have seen a lot of change in Seattle/West Seattle, essentially none of it has been good and it has only ever gone more socialist/liberal. The amount of people promised free thins by .gov has only increased, hence the blue voter base continues to grow strong. Business owners make the best politicians because they have actually worked to create something productive and meaningful. A longtime problem I continue to see in Seattle politics is the increasing growth of people in politics who've never done anything but worked for the government, basically they have never actually had to make something work, and they bring their stupid ideas to fruition at the expense of people paying taxes who do. That or similar stories to AOC who are complete idiots but get into politics because they ran in a zone that was entirely filled with ignorant .gov handout recipients. That seems indicative of a dumb populace not really thinking about who they are putting in charge, and only caring about what color their banner is.

If businesses were put in charge of fixing Seattle's problems, it would be done within a few years, but as it stands, many people are too blindly committed to voting for people with a D attached to their name that they fail to see that has led Seattle to be a big expensive toilet.

Regarding more people voting - It's tough to say. Definitely more people could make it out to vote for causes that have recently been voted on, but that's a bit of a lame argument because that can go for both sides, I also think it is frustrating that many gun owners aren't paying attention and voting, but that's a short term affect that stems from a longer term problem. A bigger affect seems to be the amount of out of state money that has recently flowed into our state to influence initiatives. Take 1639 for example - that was some of the biggest obviously corrupt piece of crap experience perpetrated on Washingtonians, but there was big money behind it, and a lot of idiots haven't really been taught to think so they are happy to sign their rights away.


There are lots of different topics that are all problematic, but looking at the larger picture
as long as the left has a dominate grip on the education system, it's a losing war.

 

[Diamondback]

Precisely why the schools were Lenin's target-of-influence of choice.

Question is, how do we break the WEA's power and take them back?