Selling Reloaded Ammo

[chariot13]

Well I don't have the code to hand, but it was pretty clear to me. There were two conditions laid out. It was clearly not the first one of "...for personal use". That was the description that made it legal to use what you rolled yourself. The other option described selling it -- which was illegal if you weren't an authorized reloader. It was pretty clear to me. I didn't see how anyone could glean something else from it...

I then mentioned how I'd seen people get around it by selling rounds as components.

Personal use is usually defined as person to person, it includes the occasions where one purchases something for oneself & then decides they dont want whatever it is any longer or needs to sell because they are broke (like say one of your firearms or some of your ammo). Its different than commercial use which implies a business to people, not person to person (people is obviously the plural form for persons & not on a personal level). Commercial use always has an implied intent of doing more than a single transaction for a manufactured item thats being transferred (multiple transactions of the same manufactured item to multiple people). So it would be safe to get rid of whatever reloads you were planning on at one time but might be questioned if you had a dozen identical sell ad's up for 100 rounds of reloads in each ad, especially if all the ad's were for the same type of ammo.

 

[richardlpalmer]

Personal use is usually defined as person to person, it includes the occasions where one purchases something for oneself & then decides they dont want whatever it is any longer or need to sell because they are now broke. Its different than commercial use which implies a business to people (people is plural persons & not on the personal level).

That might be true. But that's now how the code read to me.

And just to be fair let's call that my, "concern of legality". I've been trying to get to the BATF's website but it's completely down. The FAQs should answer the federal questions, but the state/local laws are also something to know.

**EDIT**

Their site is back up. I guess it really is as clear as mud: <broken link removed>

I think it says the same thing as what was posted in the other thread. Not particularly clear as neither apply in this instance.

 

[Nwcid]

That might be true. But that's now how the code read to me.

And just to be fair let's call that my, "concern of legality". I've been trying to get to the BATF's website but it's completely down. The FAQs should answer the federal questions, but the state/local laws are also something to know.

**EDIT**

Their site is back up. I guess it really is as clear as mud: <broken link removed>

I think it says the same thing as what was posted in the other thread. Not particularly clear as neither apply in this instance.

Ok, we will use information from your link.

Q: Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]

If you are able to make your livelihood off the occasional sale of ammo then you are doing much better then most. If you are making a business out of the occasional sale then you have better skills then most people.

Do you ever worry about selling a few guns without and FFL? The same rule applies for when you need an FFL vs when you are just selling an occasional gun here and there.

In either case you HAVE to be "engaged in the business" or you will not even be able to get a license.

 

[richardlpalmer]

Knock yourself out, then. I mean, I see your logic, but it doesn't fit the 2nd half of the statement either. So it's not clear.

I agree wholeheartedly that in this situation the person doesn't appear to be violating the first clause. But look at it from the perspective of a prosecutor. What is the definition of "business"? Could any money made on this sale assist in one's livelihood? Is there a profit being made? You and I look at it from a logic perspective of intent, but that's now how the law works. If you've ever been involved with a court proceeding or served on a jury, you'll remember that it doesn't matter what it "seems" like. They hammer on the definitions f terms laid out in the law.

A prosecutor would also probably point out there are only two possible options. 1) It's for business/making money. 2) It's for personal use. If one can be undeniably proven as not being the situation, then the other will be. So in this case, it's clearly NOT for personal use, therefore it could be argued that the first condition is the case. There is no other option, no number 3, nothing else. There are just two choices.

And while you and I don't have to agree with it, that's the viewpoint I'm looking at it from. What would a prosecutor say? Did the person violate a traffic law or not? They either did or they didn't. There is no third option. Similarly with this situation, was it for personal use? Nope. Then it's gotta be the other option, right? And just because I don't think it's enough business to be considered "business", do you think a prosecutor would? Did a transaction occur? Did money exchange hands? Did the person make a profit? Did that money get used by him?

But aside from us having an interesting conversation, I doubt it really matters much anyway. This is such a small time thing it hardly is worth bothering with. And I'm just looking at it strictly from a debate perspective. Sort of like how in WA we're supposed to collect and pay sales tax on crap we sell on craigslist but no one ever does. Doesn't mean it's not against the law -- just happens to be one that is always violated. I think that's where this debate falls...

 

[dakaham]

Would I trust a strangers reloads? Absolutely not!

As for legality most people here selling reloads are probably in the clear in the eyes of the BATF. Now what happens if some one gets hurt using said reloads? I think people selling reloads really open themselves up to civil litigation by doing so. Even stating that said loads are for components only probably isn't enough. Lets face it when lawyers see $$$ they can tear any disclaimer apart. If its components probably best to tear em down before the sale. Even if you win in court what will it cost you to do so?

 

[Nwcid]

See the problem with the link you posted is the "answers" are paraphrased answers of the ACTUAL law. In this case the actual law(s) are found in 18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41 so that is what you have to actually read.

Here is 18 U.S.C. 922, 18 USC § 922 - Unlawful acts | Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute This says all the things that are illegal

Here is 18 U.S.C. 923, 18 USC § 923 - Licensing | Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute This talks about the when you need a license

Here is 27 CFR 478.41, §*478.41***General. :: PART 478--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION :: CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE :: Title 27 - Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms :: Code of Federal Regulations :: Reg This deals with with more licensing issues

I can not find in ANY of those where it says it is illegal for a person to privately sell guns or ammo (even reloaded). The only thing I see is that it is illegal to conduct a business, be it making or selling firearms or ammo, without a license. Can anyone point out the ACUTAL law that says it is illegal?

I know people when selling guns always check buyers "legal status" but did you know ALL of the same requirements apply to ammo? You never here anyone asking or being worried about that. Check 18 U.S.C. 922d