National Selling completed 80% lowers...

[titsonritz]

I'm not a 80% lower guy but I was under the impression one is not suppose to sell firearms they "manufactured" themselves including 80% lowers unless they had a serial number. Can anyone confirm that?

@steelo468 I didn't want to pollute your thread so I started this one.

https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/ar-uppers-and-80-lowers.347476/

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[223to45]

Been a while since i have looked. But even the ATF says it is not required, but HIGHLY recommended.

Probably really depends on the state.

 

[Grizzly_A]

So much is based on "intent". If you intended to sell them, then it's illegal and you must go get a firearm manufacturing license in order to continue manufacturing/selling. If you completed one and used it and then sold it as part of a package deal because you needed the money to survive, it's legal. If you completed one and it was part of your estate, it's legal. It is highly recommended that you add a serial # and your name regardless, but it may or may not be required by your state.

The safe rule is read your state's regulations and the ATF to stay in the clear. Nothing said on an internet forum will get you out of appearing in court. Do your own research, keep your own records.

 

[AMT]

Buried in my papers i have printed a page from the ATF. Paraphrasing..... "......you cannot sell home made firearms for business or lively hood....."

You ARE allowed to make firearms for your own personal use. Nothing saying that you cannot sell said firearm because you "grew tired of it" (or some other reason to get rid of it). I personally wouldn't make it a habit of selling homemade firearms.

Remember a couple years ago, the guy that was arrest in kommiefornia for making and selling 80% firearms. The ATF refused to press charges because they admit that he wasn't doing it for business or livelyhood. I guess he was doing it as a "hobby". (I am looking for this article. I know it's out there, my Google-fu ain't working so well right now.....)

Some other links that I have found....

National - Homemade firearms, 80% products, etc. When do they legally become a firearm?

My understanding with 80% frames and receivers is that if you take it one step further than the way it is manufactured then it would legally be considered a firearm. For example you purchase an 80% pistol frame and drill one of three holes then it's considered a legal firearm. What about...

www.northwestfirearms.com

Homemade Guns: Are They Legal? Must They Be Registered?

Homemade guns made from "ghost gun" kits and on 3D printers haven't had to be registered or bear serial numbers under federal law, but the rules may be changing.

www.criminaldefenselawyer.com

Does an individual need a license to make a firearm for personal use? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

No, a license is not required to make a firearm solely for personal use. However, a license is required to manufacture firearms for sale or distribution. The law prohibits a person from assembling a non–sporting semiautomatic rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as well as firearms...

www.atf.gov

 

[asiparks]

when you buy the kit, it's not a firearm- when it's completed, then it is a firearm- so does it then have to be transferred through an FFL ?
How would the FFL log it without a serial ?

bonus question- assuming the feds somehow got their hands on orders, say from Brownells, showing you'd bought multiple 80% kits, yet you had X number less in your possession, could that be awkward ?

 

[therealhitman]

I'm not a 80% lower guy but I was under the impression one is not suppose to sell firearms they "manufactured" themselves including 80% lowers unless they had a serial number.

His lowers are not complete, No pin holes or safety holes drilled yet. 80% is just a figure of speech rather than a measurable amount of completion as I understand it.

 

[edzz]

when you buy the kit, it's not a firearm- when it's completed, then it is a firearm- so does it then have to be transferred through an FFL ?
How would the FFL log it without a serial ?

bonus question- assuming the feds somehow got their hands on orders, say from Brownells, showing you'd bought multiple 80% kits, yet you had X number less in your possession, could that be awkward ?

Prior to '68 firearms were not required to have serial numbers and yet they are transferred legally by FFL's all the time. That said you may have a difficult time finding an FFL that is willing to do a transfer on a 80% receiver. that has had any additional work on it, heck most FFL's I know won't have anything to do with 80% guns.

 

[steelo468]

From what I understand. 80% lowers of any kind are not firearms. Once they are milled, they become firearms. Then upon sale or transfer, an FFL is required.

 

[steelo468]

I'm not a 80% lower guy but I was under the impression one is not suppose to sell firearms they "manufactured" themselves including 80% lowers unless they had a serial number. Can anyone confirm that?

@steelo468 I didn't want to pollute your thread so I started this one.

https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/ar-uppers-and-80-lowers.347476/

Thanks

 

[titsonritz]

His lowers are not complete, No pin holes or safety holes drilled yet. 80% is just a figure of speech rather than a measurable amount of completion as I understand it.

I realize that, but it was his post that made my think "What if...?"

 

[Kruel J]

Firearms require an FFL to legally transfer, at least in Oregon and Washington. A serial number is required to complete the transfer. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

 

[DLS]

What @Kruel J says.

If the transfer requires a BGC and the firearm was "made" after 1968 it will require ATF approved engraving, including a serial number.

So if I give / sell one of my completed 80% firearms to my son, no engraving is necessary since there is no BGC required for this transfer. If I wanted to sell / give it to my neighbor I'd need to engrave the lower at that time.

Some states add to these requirements. My understanding of current California law is that engraving needs to be done at the time of completion of the 80% billet, even if you are keeping it for personal use only. Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure I've seen this requirement posted from a credible source.

 

[Kruel J]

Yep. A gun cannot legally be transferred without a serial number (curio/relic notwithstanding). So anyone looking to sell a completed 80% project cannot legally do so unless it's serialized. Pretty easy stuff here.

 

[AMT]

Yep. A gun cannot legally be transferred without a serial number. So anyone looking to sell a completed 80% project cannot legally do so unless it's serialized. Pretty easy stuff here.

Yes it can. On the 4473, in the block that you are supposed to put the serial number, you put "N/A". Further steps are needed on the approving end (sheriff's office), but it is perfectly legal to do that.

 

[Kruel J]

Yes it can. On the 4473, in the block that you are supposed to put the serial number, you put "N/A". Further steps are needed on the approving end (sheriff's office), but it is perfectly legal to do that.

Ok, but I was simplifying things for the masses. For most transactions done by most people, a serial is required.