JavaScript is disabled
Our website requires JavaScript to function properly. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser settings before proceeding.
Status
You fail at the legal definition of "causation", even after I provided a link to give the definition.

F- to you!


Bottom line someone holding a open knife is a lethal threat, Williams was told 3 or 4 times to drop the knife. He did not.

How many more times should the officer have told him to drop the knife? Or should he had said "please Mr. with a knife would you do me a favor and drop the knife so we could sit down for a coffee and talk about life and your Bad Decision Making?"

Everyone likes to talk about the 21ft concept when it comes to SD for a CC person, well guess what it's the same concept for LEO's.
 
So you don't agree with constitutional rights? That is a hypocritical view for someone running a gun range, just sayin'.

Yeah it's our constitutional right. Do I think OC is a good idea? NO I don't. Hey look at me I have a gun on my hip shoot me first in a robbery.

Do I think people should be allowed to OC? YES. Would I ever OC? Not a chance in ****.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

As for what it has to do with my job at the range, doesnt really matter. Unless someone has trained with me they are not allowed to draw from a holster at the range anyways. :)
 
Bottom line someone holding a open knife is a lethal threat, Williams was told 3 or 4 times to drop the knife. He did not.

Reality and the Constitution says that is not the bottom line. :s0155:

How many more times should the officer have told him to drop the knife? Or should he had said "please Mr. with a knife would you do me a favor and drop the knife so we could sit down for a coffee and talk about life and your Bad Decision Making?"

Everyone likes to talk about the 21ft concept when it comes to SD for a CC person, well guess what it's the same concept for LEO's.

Sure but you don't seem to acknowledge the fact that the deceased was well within his rights to carry the knife in the fashion he was carrying the knife.

You seem to also gloss over the fact that the officer had no legal cause to approach the deceased in the fashion he approached the deceased, thus the legal definition of "causation".

Oh and BTW every person behind the wheel of a car is a lethal threat, do you get to shoot the guy that cut you off and did not yield when you applied your horn? NO!

Causation (law)


Causation is the "causal relationship between conduct and result". That is to say that causation provides a means of connecting conduct with a resulting effect, typically an injury. In criminal law, it is defined as the actus reus (an action) from which the specific injury or other effect arose and is combined with mens rea (a state of mind) to comprise the elements of guilt.
 
Yeah it's our constitutional right. Do I think OC is a good idea? NO I don't. Hey look at me I have a gun on my hip shoot me first in a robbery.

Do I think people should be allowed to OC? YES. Would I ever OC? Not a chance in ****.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

As for what it has to do with my job at the range, doesnt really matter. Unless someone has trained with me they are not allowed to draw from a holster at the range anyways. :)

Note to self, never go to the English Pit as I'm not good enough to be in the presence of Jeff Varner. :huh:
 
You seem to also gloss over the fact that the officer had no legal cause to approach the deceased in the fashion he approached the deceased, thus the legal definition of "causation".

I have been pulled over and or stopped for no reason in my opinion, so does that mean I should ignored the LEO commands, not complied and or not given him my DL/CC permit or let him know I was carrying?

I wasn't doing anything so why should I have agreed to answer questions and hand over my DL and etc.

It probably would have been better to ignore him and not comply
 
Bottom line someone holding a open knife is a lethal threat, Williams was told 3 or 4 times to drop the knife. He did not.

How many more times should the officer have told him to drop the knife? Or should he had said "please Mr. with a knife would you do me a favor and drop the knife so we could sit down for a coffee and talk about life and your Bad Decision Making?"

Everyone likes to talk about the 21ft concept when it comes to SD for a CC person, well guess what it's the same concept for LEO's.

<broken link removed>


The knife that John T. Williams was carrying when he was fatally shot by a Seattle police officer on Aug. 30 was folded in a closed position when it was recovered minutes after the shooting, according to sources familiar with the investigation.

The knife's condition, combined with evidence that Williams was shot in the side, played a role in a preliminary determination by the Police Department's Firearms Review Board and Chief John Diaz that the shooting was not justified, said one law-enforcement source.

The three-inch blade was found closed when another officer picked up the knife, which is documented in evidentiary photographs taken at the scene, the sources said.

Tests were to be conducted to determine whether it's possible the knife might have closed when it hit the ground, sources said. However, a local knife maker said that would be "almost impossible."

Ian Birk, the officer who shot Williams, told the review board the blade was visible when he confronted Williams near downtown Seattle and ordered him three times to drop the knife, according to one source. Williams was shot when he didn't respond, according to police officials.
 
I have been pulled over and or stopped for no reason in my opinion, so does that mean I should ignored the LEO commands, not complied and or not given him my DL/CC permit or let him know I was carrying?

I wasn't doing anything so why should I have agreed to answer questions and hand over my DL and etc.

It probably would have been better to ignore him and not comply

I'd like to see you pull your license out and hand it to a cop yelling at you from behind 7 seconds from the time you actually even knew he was there. :s0155:

Keep trying to justify it "I'm your Huckleberry!"
 
I'd like to see you pull your license out and hand it to a cop yelling at you from behind 7 seconds from the time you actually even knew he was there. :s0155:

Keep trying to justify it "I'm your Huckleberry!"

I sure in the **** wouldn't turn around with a knife in my hand.

As far as you being my huckleberry, bubblegum you're no daisy let alone a huckleberry
 
I sure in the **** wouldn't turn around with a knife in my hand.

But you can get your license out in that time though, you said so! ;)

As far as you being my huckleberry, bubblegum you're no daisy let alone a huckleberry

I would note that it took you 120 seconds to reply to my post, you aren't under any stress and you know the situation of the debate upfront.
 
Bottom line someone holding a open knife is a lethal threat, Williams was told 3 or 4 times to drop the knife. He did not.

You keep painting the picture that Williams was aware that he was being commanded to drop his (legal) knife but willfully refused to do so, justifying (in your mind) his being shot dead. There is no evidence that Williams heard any of Birk's commands, so it doesn't matter if Birk told him 3 or 4 or 10 times to drop his (legal) knife. There is no evidence the picture you keep trying to sell is accurate. In fact, the evidence contradicts your fantasy scenario.

  • The video clearly shows Birk approaching Williams from behind after Williams had passed in front of Birk's patrol vehicle and had travelled farther down the street. Birk is seen getting out of the vehicle and chasing after Williams, yelling at Williams from behind.
  • An eyewitness stated that Williams appeared to be unaware of Birk and didn't even look up at him before he was shot.

    One witness who contacted The Seattle Times has questioned the department's version of events and said the man may not have even realized the officer was trying to get his attention before shots rang out.

    Amber Maurina, 28, said she was driving home Monday afternoon from a doctor's appointment and was stopped at a red light at Boren and Howell. She said she was facing north on Boren and saw the officer stop his patrol car, which was facing south on Boren, and get out.

    Maurina said a tall, scruffy-looking man was standing with his back to her. She said she never saw the man's hands but thought he might be urinating or fumbling around in a fanny pack. Maurina said she watched the officer approach the man and saw him mouthing something to the man, who did not appear to respond.

    "His body stance did not look threatening at all," she said of the man. "I could only see the gentleman's back, and he didn't look aggressive at all. He didn't even look up at the officer."

    The officer approached the man, but was still "at least two car-lengths" away, Maurina said, when she heard the officer say, "Hey, hey, hey," followed by gunshots.

    "I watched him kind of slowly, sort of gracefully and elegantly, fall to the ground," Maurina said of the man. "From what I saw, it did not look right."

    <broken link removed>
  • The autopsy showed that all of Birk's shots entered Williams' right side, indicating Williams was not facing Birk when he was shot.

    <broken link removed>
 
some may wonder why the media wont put out williams criminal history? because we live in seattle, the media hate police and leo's they never pat them on the back for solving 40 year old cold case murders, but are there to jump on and discredit any mistake or assumed mistake by a leo or police organization. its sad that they dont report the whole story just what makes "News".

The media won't put out Williams' criminal history you say?

From Family: Man shot by police was deaf in left ear dated 9/1/2010, two days after Williams was killed.

Court documents for a May 2009 indecent exposure case -- a felony for which Williams pleaded guilty -- say he was a transient.

At a Tuesday news briefing, Deputy Seattle Police Chief Nick Metz said Williams was known to several officers. Court documents show Williams had several legal troubles.

"In the past 20 years he has 30 such convictions, including public indecency (5 convictions); lewd conduct, disorderly conduct and indecent exposure," King County Senior Deputy Prosecutor Carol Spoor wrote in 2009 court documents.

From <broken link removed> dated 10/5/2010

Williams had been a chronic alcoholic drifting in and out of homelessness, detox centers, hospitals and jails for decades. From Des Moines to Sedro-Woolley, police officers dealt with Williams time and again. He was arrested and charged more than 100 times in the city of Seattle alone since 1985, for a slew of misdemeanor offenses: disorderly conduct, criminal trespass, drinking in public.

From <broken link removed> dated 11/22/2010

Seattle police had repeated contacts with John T. Williams before he was fatally shot by Officer Ian Birk on Aug. 30, with most encounters showing a chronically drunk and belligerent &#8212; but ultimately compliant &#8212; Williams, according to evidence gathered by the department.
 
From what I see and read, that cop made a poor judgement call that cost a troubled man his life. If it wasn't for my reliance on making this call from the way it's presented by the "professional" media, I'd say hang him. However, I believe that the media portrays things the way they would like for a person to see them, so how about we let this cop have his day in court. And he needs to stand up in front af a jury of his peers and explain his actions.
 
Most LEO's and correction officers (and I'm lifelong friends with a few) really believe that they are of a different class. You are either one of them, or you are part of a sub-class of civilians and perps that exist to make their lives difficult. They really do believe that just about anything they do is justified to 'protect and serve' us. Any LEO who doesn't believe this is an exception.

This case is a direct result of that pervasive attitude. I've seen the same attitude in Iraq with soldiers dealing with those 'f'ing Haji.' They are seen as sub-human, and their lives have little value.

IMHO, the only real answer is to privatize protection services as some anarcho-capitalists call for (see Murray Rothbard's book, "For a New Liberty" as a specific example.)

Under such a system, no private security officer would have any more inherent authority than a mall security guard, largely ending these "Comply or Die!" cases.

In a world where a liberal administration like Obama's can claim they have the authority to assassinate a U.S. citizen without due process, there really is no question that we are living in a police state.

That's why I think OC is foolish. You are far more likely to be killed by a cop than change people's attitude on guns through educational 'outreach.'

The plain language constitution says that our right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The founders probably should have added a clause saying that doing so should not be used as a justification for the state to kill you.
 
Most LEO's and correction officers (and I'm lifelong friends with a few) really believe that they are of a different class. You are either one of them, or you are part of a sub-class of civilians and perps that exist to make their lives difficult. They really do believe that just about anything they do is justified to 'protect and serve' us. Any LEO who doesn't believe this is an exception.
Well, if you know one you MUST know them all. You use words like "most" and "exception" to try and persuade people to see your skewed view. No Most cops do not believe that. You are wrong.
This case is a direct result of that pervasive attitude. I've seen the same attitude in Iraq with soldiers dealing with those 'f'ing Haji.' They are seen as sub-human, and their lives have little value.
This isn't a pervasive attitude. Ya know, I can understand why a few of them do get this attitude, with attitudes like yours.
 
Sorry to offend you. That's just how I feel. Let me elaborate.

I believe our government has moved far beyond the confines of the constitution and is now illegitimate, no better than a gang of thieves writ large. They extract our property by force, or threat of force and dole out just enough to their supporters to keep themselves and their parties in power. Republican or Democrat - it matters not. They are just two wings of the big government party.

The police are just armed enforcers of this state tyranny, enforcing unjust laws. As a libertarian, I believe the only time use of force is justified is in defense against an immediate threat. Police are granted by the state a monopoly on the use of force for other than defensive situations. The examples of police escalating non-violent situations into comply or die encounters are to numerous to list.

This greatly offends my sensibilities.

"Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once?... If the injustice has a spring, or a pulley, or a rope, or a crank, exclusively for itself, then perhaps you may consider whether the remedy will not be worse than the evil; but if it is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter-friction to stop the machine. What I have to do is to see, at any rate, that I do not lend myself to the wrong which I condemn. " -Henry David Thoreau
 
Last Edited:
Sorry to offend you. That's just how I feel. Let me elaborate.

I believe our government has moved far beyond the confines of the constitution and is now illegitimate, no better than a gang of thieves writ large. They extract our property by force, or threat of force and dole out just enough to their supporters to keep themselves and their parties in power. Republican or Democrat - it matters not. They are just two wings of the big government party.

The police are just armed enforcers of this state tyranny, enforcing unjust laws. As a libertarian, I believe the only time use of force is justified is in defense against an immediate threat. Police are granted by the state a monopoly on the use of force for other than defensive situations. The examples of police escalating non-violent situations into comply or die encounters are to numerous to list.

This greatly offends my sensibilities.

"Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once?... If the injustice has a spring, or a pulley, or a rope, or a crank, exclusively for itself, then perhaps you may consider whether the remedy will not be worse than the evil; but if it is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter-friction to stop the machine. What I have to do is to see, at any rate, that I do not lend myself to the wrong which I condemn. " -Henry David Thoreau

:s0155:
 
Sorry to offend you. That's just how I feel. Let me elaborate.

I believe our government has moved far beyond the confines of the constitution and is now illegitimate, no better than a gang of thieves writ large. They extract our property by force, or threat of force and dole out just enough to their supporters to keep themselves and their parties in power. Republican or Democrat - it matters not. They are just two wings of the big government party.

The police are just armed enforcers of this state tyranny, enforcing unjust laws. As a libertarian, I believe the only time use of force is justified is in defense against an immediate threat. Police are granted by the state a monopoly on the use of force for other than defensive situations. The examples of police escalating non-violent situations into comply or die encounters are to numerous to list.

This greatly offends my sensibilities.

"Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once?... If the injustice has a spring, or a pulley, or a rope, or a crank, exclusively for itself, then perhaps you may consider whether the remedy will not be worse than the evil; but if it is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter-friction to stop the machine. What I have to do is to see, at any rate, that I do not lend myself to the wrong which I condemn. " -Henry David Thoreau
Feel free to start another thread with your answer (I think it would be a very interesting conversation), but what would you say are the top ten "unjust" laws in this country? What method of resistance do you feel would be effective in changing them? Also, then please cite what you feel are the best "real world" examples that demonstrate a functional society that does not have said laws.
 
Sorry to offend you. That's just how I feel. Let me elaborate.

I believe our government has moved far beyond the confines of the constitution and is now illegitimate, no better than a gang of thieves writ large. They extract our property by force, or threat of force and dole out just enough to their supporters to keep themselves and their parties in power. Republican or Democrat - it matters not. They are just two wings of the big government party.

The police are just armed enforcers of this state tyranny, enforcing unjust laws. As a libertarian, I believe the only time use of force is justified is in defense against an immediate threat. Police are granted by the state a monopoly on the use of force for other than defensive situations. The examples of police escalating non-violent situations into comply or die encounters are to numerous to list.

This greatly offends my sensibilities.

"Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once?... If the injustice has a spring, or a pulley, or a rope, or a crank, exclusively for itself, then perhaps you may consider whether the remedy will not be worse than the evil; but if it is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter-friction to stop the machine. What I have to do is to see, at any rate, that I do not lend myself to the wrong which I condemn. " -Henry David Thoreau

+2. You didn't offend me.
 
Status

Upcoming Events

Tillamook Gun & Knife Show
Tillamook, OR
"The Original" Kalispell Gun Show
Kalispell, MT
Teen Rifle 1 Class
Springfield, OR
Kids Firearm Safety 2 Class
Springfield, OR

New Resource Reviews

New Classified Ads

Back Top