Seattle Police Release Dashcam Video Of Woodcarver's Shooting

[Trlsmn]

Someone walking down the street minding his business....LOL he was walking down the street with a open knife. Let me guess you are one of these OC advocates? So I guess if someone is just walking down the street carrying a gun its alright too?

As far as saying my analogy was way off. How about your car insurance analogy? Really? not hearing a officer ask for proof of insurance and turning towards a officer with a knife is way different.

As far as not worrying about going home at night. Yeah it should not be the only concern for an officer, but if it comes down to a guy using lethal force on a non complying person or not going home at night. The choice seems pretty easy.

What part of whittling wood in public not being illegal don't you understand?

Do you understand the legal concept of "Causation"?

The officer caused the situation to happen not the whittler.

 

[Trlsmn]

So can a baseball bat.

So imagine you were walking home from a softball game with your baseball bat, listening to an iPod (headphones attached to an AM/FM radio were found on Williams' body), and you are deaf in one ear. You are minding your own business and not breaking any laws or threatening anyone. Officer Birk comes up from behind you commanding you to drop the bat, but you don't hear him. You finally become aware that someone is yelling something from behind you, and as you turn to see who it is and what they are saying, you are shot several times until you are dead. No problem, because you didn't "comply"?

Even the Seattle PD doesn't agree with you. They found that the shooting was not justified and have collected Officer Birk's badge and gun. <broken link removed>

Excellent analogy A+++ move to the head of the class

I really don't understand why some people give every police shooting a free pass? And on the opposite end of the spectrum some people condemn every police shooting even when it appears reasonable. Each incident should be taken on it's own merits

 

[Redcap]

No non compliance when you are holding a deadly weapon is just asking for a bad outcome.

Looks like this is the wrong board for you, hoss. We don't cater to morons around here.

 

[Redcap]

Excellent analogy A+++ move to the head of the class

I really don't understand why some people give every police shooting a free pass? And on the opposite end of the spectrum some people condemn every police shooting even when it appears reasonable. Each incident should be taken on it's own merits

Yup.

 

[JRV]

i can kill you just as easily with about half the things sitting in front of me on my desk, including this laptop.

i think it's about time you pop smoke. you're doing absolutely nothing but pissing everyone off, and quite deliberately. that's trolling.

Yeah I'm intentionally trying to piss people off. Give me a F'n break.

Is this not a DISCUSSION board?

I don't agree with OC, people bashing cops, people who bash cops and this militia type attitude people have.

As far as not knowing anything and just being a RO at English Pit. Why don't you google Jeff Varner Vancouver Wa and see what comes up, since I'm just a know nothing RO. LOL

 

[JRV]

What part of whittling wood in public not being illegal don't you understand?

Do you understand the legal concept of "Causation"?

The officer caused the situation to happen not the whittler.

You're right, I mean the officer was the one who wouldn't drop the knife

 

[jbuck]

I am not sure if it is true, if somebody knows different please set me straight.
I was told that the officer Birk had a run in with the same person, williams, the week prior. So he was familiar with the victim and knew about his handicap.

 

[HahnsXD]

I don't agree with OC, people bashing cops, people who bash cops and this militia type attitude people have.

Good for you.

I don't agree with people who support cops unconditionally

I've had an equal number of good and bad encounters with cops, they're people, therefore half of them are great and half of them aren't worth the air they breathe.

This isn't simple blind cop bashing.


Thank Christ you aren't a cop.

 

[BSG 75]

I don't agree with OC, people bashing cops, ...

Whether you "agree" with open carry or not, it is legal in most states

Maybe you would be happier in Washington, DC where open carry is illegal, instead of Washington state. Or Cuba or North Korea or Iran, they probably don't "agree" with open carry either. BTW, I have never open carried and have no plans to do so.

So when the Seattle Police Department says this shooting was not justified are they "bashing cops" too?

Seattle Police Chief John Diaz and the department's Firearms Review Board have reached a preliminary finding that an officer's fatal shooting of woodcarver John T. Williams on Aug. 30 was not justified, according to sources familiar with the case.

Diaz and the board will make a final determination after the completion of a pending court inquest into the shooting. It is rare for a shooting by an officer to be found unjustified.

After the preliminary finding was reached last week, the officer, Ian Birk, was ordered by Deputy Chief Clark Kimerer, who oversees the review board, to surrender his gun and badge, according to the sources. Birk, 27, who joined the department in July 2008, remains on routine paid leave.

Discussing a case where an inexperienced cop overreacts and kills someone who wasn't breaking any laws is not "cop bashing".

People who defend every officer-involved shooting no matter how bad are just as mindless as the "cop bashers" who criticize every officer-involved shooting, no matter how justified. As Trismn said, each case has to be judged individually. It seems you and Ian Birk's attorney are the only ones who think this case was a "good shoot". You are entitled to your opinion, but in this case your defense of Officer Birk's fatally poor judgment only lowers your credibility and reputation, which you seem quite proud of.

Why don't you google Jeff Varner Vancouver Wa and see what comes up, since I'm just a know nothing RO. LOL

 

[svxr8dr]

I don't agree with OC, people bashing cops, people who bash cops and this militia type attitude people have.

As far as not knowing anything and just being a RO at English Pit. Why don't you google Jeff Varner Vancouver Wa and see what comes up, since I'm just a know nothing RO. LOL

Wow......thanks for saving me from spending $15 at English Pit

 

[JRV]

Good for you.

I don't agree with people who support cops unconditionally

I've had an equal number of good and bad encounters with cops, they're people, therefore half of them are great and half of them aren't worth the air they breathe.

This isn't simple blind cop bashing.


Thank Christ you aren't a cop.

Yeah Hahnsxd I thank Christ I'm not you....You were asking newbie questions just months ago, now you're a OC/CC tactician and expert of self defense shootings.

 

[dieter998]

well let me throw my 2 cents in on this, let me say this first, i am not saying the officer is justified in the shooting, the video does not show what happened as he started shooting.

but couple things for people to realize the new police chief for seattle publically apologized for the officers actions before the police inquiry started.??? yes do to being a new police chief and under heavy pressure from the local tribal community he condoned the actions of an officer before the internal investigation began, thanks for backing your officers and waiting for the actual report to come out.

and for Mr. John T. Williams as the news calls him do not telling you what the t. stands for??? his legal name is john trouble williams, and has been arrested for rape, rob 2, res burg, assault, and more than 30 misdemeanor crimes in seattle, although hard of hearing in one ear, not deaf. the news also likes to refer to him as ambulatory, but if you watch the clip he walks with ease and decent speed across the crosswalk. and he is a felon, convicted on several crimes over his long criminal career.

not saying he deserved it, but not the saint that everyone is trying to say he his. my personal encoutners with him were that he was often drunk when arrested and hates cops or any one with a badge. i have several reports for having to use force with him.

again not saying the shooting was just or unjust, i wasnt there and all the facts have not come out for public information, so i am not going to sit here and type outrageous things on the forum when i dont know facts. i will wait for them to come out in january and go from there. i am personally upset with the chief for not standing behind his officer before the internal review came back. he folded to apease the community, but showed every officer he commands that he wont back them if the public crys loud enough, just or unjust. that is sad to me.

thats my 2 cents as an leo in king county/seattle.

 

[JRV]

well let me throw my 2 cents in on this, let me say this first, i am not saying the officer is justified in the shooting, the video does not show what happened as he started shooting.

but couple things for people to realize the new police chief for seattle publically apologized for the officers actions before the police inquiry started.??? yes do to being a new police chief and under heavy pressure from the local tribal community he condoned the actions of an officer before the internal investigation began, thanks for backing your officers and waiting for the actual report to come out.

and for Mr. John T. Williams as the news calls him do not telling you what the t. stands for??? his legal name is john trouble williams, and has been arrested for rape, rob 2, res burg, assault, and more than 30 misdemeanor crimes in seattle, although hard of hearing in one ear, not deaf. the news also likes to refer to him as ambulatory, but if you watch the clip he walks with ease and decent speed across the crosswalk. and he is a felon, convicted on several crimes over his long criminal career.

not saying he deserved it, but not the saint that everyone is trying to say he his. my personal encoutners with him were that he was often drunk when arrested and hates cops or any one with a badge. i have several reports for having to use force with him.

again not saying the shooting was just or unjust, i wasnt there and all the facts have not come out for public information, so i am not going to sit here and type outrageous things on the forum when i dont know facts. i will wait for them to come out in january and go from there. i am personally upset with the chief for not standing behind his officer before the internal review came back. he folded to apease the community, but showed every officer he commands that he wont back them if the public crys loud enough, just or unjust. that is sad to me.

thats my 2 cents as an leo in king county/seattle.

So could one make the assumption they know Mr. Williams and his distaste for LEO's, his aggressive behavior and alcohol problem from past interactions?

If yes to above, if Williams is know to be combative and not a fan of LE and aggressive and was making the CHOICE TO NOT COMPLY to NUMEROPUS commands to drop the knife an officer could be in fear for his life and the officers trained or learned responses to a threatening stimuli with a knife kicked in and he did what he was trained to do.

 

[HahnsXD]

Yeah Hahnsxd I thank Christ I'm not you....You were asking newbie questions just months ago, now you're a OC/CC tactician and expert of self defense shootings.

And you're obviously deaf and blind. You're dead wrong, period. You're also unaware of the Constitution. As BSG said, you're hurting your own credibility and reputation which you seem to be so proud of. I'm far from an expert and I'm right, what's your excuse?

 

[dieter998]

i would answer yes to the above questions you posed. i know from personal encounters with him and uses of force against him that he generaly hates police or any leo, and has a drinking problem for many years. he has also been know to fight and assault arresting police officers.

as for this instance again i dont know how it went down none of us do on here! and I dont know Birks interactions with williams in the past to know if he is aware of his behavior. i am waiting for more info to come out, to speculate that williams did not listen to or became agressive to a cop with his gun already drawn... i would say it was inline with his know, behavior towards cops, but dont know what happened that day.

it is a sad day for me when police shootings occure, i wish that things would not have gone that far, but am thankful that we have police there to draw that line and if have to and justified use deadly force.

some may wonder why the media wont put out williams criminal history? because we live in seattle, the media hate police and leo's they never pat them on the back for solving 40 year old cold case murders, but are there to jump on and discredit any mistake or assumed mistake by a leo or police organization. its sad that they dont report the whole story just what makes "News".

 

[JRV]

i would answer yes to the above questions you posed. i know from personal encounters with him and uses of force against him that he generaly hates police or any leo, and has a drinking problem for many years. he has also been know to fight and assault arresting police officers.

as for this instance again i dont know how it went down none of us do on here! and I dont know Birks interactions with williams in the past to know if he is aware of his behavior. i am waiting for more info to come out, to speculate that williams did not listen to or became agressive to a cop with his gun already drawn... i would say it was inline with his know, behavior towards cops, but dont know what happened that day.

it is a sad day for me when police shootings occure, i wish that things would not have gone that far, but am thankful that we have police there to draw that line and if have to and justified use deadly force.

some may wonder why the media wont put out williams criminal history? because we live in seattle, the media hate police and leo's they never pat them on the back for solving 40 year old cold case murders, but are there to jump on and discredit any mistake or assumed mistake by a leo or police organization. its sad that they dont report the whole story just what makes "News".

Thanks Dieter998 the news only reports the things that will make people go OMG or oh how did he do that, etc etc.

Your prior experience with Williams speaks volumes to the type of person he is, not the innocent, partially deaf, minding his own business carving wood upstanding citizen.

Just curious what is the SOP's for someone who is holding a weapon and not complying to commands?

 

[BSG 75]

not saying he deserved it, but not the saint that everyone is trying to say he his.

Please give examples where anyone here said John T. Williams was a "saint". Since "everyone" is trying to say he is there should be plenty of examples, lets see some.....

Regardless of his past history, on the day Williams was killed he was not an escaped convict and he was not breaking any laws, much less assaulting Officer Birk or anyone else. We don't allow cops to shoot people on the street based on their past record.

well let me throw my 2 cents in on this, let me say this first, i am not saying the officer is justified in the shooting,...

not saying he deserved it,...

again not saying the shooting was just or unjust, ...

Gotcha. I think we can read between the lines. :winkkiss:

Perhaps the chief apologized not because of community pressure, but because right off the bat it was obvious that this was a bad shoot. His investigators and assistant chiefs came up to him and said "we have a problem here, time to start the damage control".

 

[Chee-to]

Just after 1:00 minute, the video shows Williams shuffling across the street—carrying a board and minding his own business—in front of Birk's squad car. Birk jumps out and yells, "Hey, put the knife down." Then Birk follows Williams out of the frame. After two more commands (audible while the men are off screen) there are shots fired that killed Williams. A woman is also shown crossing the street who appears to witness the whole thing from maybe 20 feet away.

After 2:00, Officer Birk says, "Ma'am, he had a knife and he wouldn't drop it."

At 2:30, backup cars arrive.

At about 3:00, a voice (probably Birk's) says, "Yeah, I am okay. He had the knife open." (The investigation has since said that police found the knife closed.)

At 5:10, another officer can be heard telling Birk, "You did the right thing. Hang in there, Ian."

 

[Trlsmn]

You're right, I mean the officer was the one who wouldn't drop the knife

You fail at the legal definition of "causation", even after I provided a link to give the definition.

F- to you!

 

[Trlsmn]

I don't agree with OC,

So you don't agree with constitutional rights? That is a hypocritical view for someone running a gun range, just sayin'.

As far as not knowing anything and just being a RO at English Pit. Why don't you google Jeff Varner Vancouver Wa and see what comes up, since I'm just a know nothing RO. LOL