Scorpion ACR Almost makes me want one.

[ilikegunspdx]

If PSA ever releases their mp5 clone, It may be the best option available. if they ever release it...

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Re range toy, u can get 22lr AR-type pistols very inexpensively. Get a binary trigger and uv got a very cheap fast shooting plinker (low cost ammo). This one has a folding stock from 1st gen MPX.

 

[Member 34319]

Good post. Re MPX, have u ever shot it suppressed? I've read many reviews that say it blows so much gas back into ur face when suppressed it is really uncomfortable.

Re PCCs in general I think they r so much more than a range toy. If u have foldable/collapsible stock such as on mpx, scorpion, mp5 they r tiny and can go in a backpack, or bedside, or truck and u have an extremely portable incredibly accurate (with red dot etc) gun with 30 rounds or whatever. Enough power for most situations such as home defense. I see cop videos where multiple officers are firing multiple mags with their handgun to get the bad guy. One of these pccs with a red dot and foldable brace (can be shouldered) really one or two shots is all that would be needed probably (but has 30rds anyway). It seems to me that all cops could carry a really compact pcc or at least have in vehicle. They are tiny when folded up.

The MPX suppressed is not bad at all. I didn't notice any excess gas shooting a members. He had to adjust the gas back and forth a lot between subs and supers as well as for suppressed vs non suppressed. It seemed really finicky with its gas settings.

I was also wearing eye protection so I usually don't notice extra gassy guns from my choice of eye protection.

As for uses. I know there are lots of folks that don't "get" the PCC "fad".

In my eyes it's about recreational shooting. As that's really all private citizens use of firearms for really. If you are more serious and put on plate carriers and are getting training, or competition oriented, or just plinking at the North Fork Lanes, it is all recreational shooting in my eyes. Yes carrying a concealed weapon and using it to defend yourself is different, as is use of any weapon to defend yourself in any other situation. But, once your at the range practicing or whatnot, it's recreational.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

The MPX suppressed is not bad at all. I didn't notice any excess gas shooting a members. He had to adjust the gas back and forth a lot between subs and supers as well as for suppressed vs non suppressed. It seemed really finicky with its gas settings.

I was also wearing eye protection so I usually don't notice extra gassy guns from my choice of eye protection.

As for uses. I know there are lots of folks that don't "get" the PCC "fad".

In my eyes it's about recreational shooting. As that's really all private citizens use of firearms for really. If you are more serious and put on plate carriers and are getting training, or competition oriented, or just plinking at the North Fork Lanes, it is all recreational shooting in my eyes. Yes carrying a concealed weapon and using it to defend yourself is different, as is use of any weapon to defend yourself in any other situation. But, once your at the range practicing or whatnot, it's recreational.

Agree and thanks for the helpful MPX info. PCC and 22lr tactical type guns are both a blast to shoot on the range!

Re home defense use, I had my extar EP9 set up for that with a red dot, light, and glock oem 33 rd mag with self defense rounds. I was very confident that if I ever needed it for that use, it would do the job well. But then so would my 12ga with 00 buck. : ) My small EDC pistol (w/night sights) for home defense? Harder to shoot accurately in a home defense situation IMO. PCC would do much better in that situation and is still pretty small which would make it nice for indoor use. PCCs (with shouldered brace) are much easier to shoot accurately IMO. But everyone has different opinions on home defense guns, and whatever works for them is great. Many good options out there.

 

[Member 34319]

Agree and thanks for the helpful MPX info. PCC and 22lr tactical type guns are both a blast to shoot on the range!

Re home defense use, I had my extar EP9 set up for that with a red dot, light, and glock oem 33 rd mag with self defense rounds. I was very confident that if I ever needed it for that use, it would do the job well. But then so would my 12ga with 00 buck. : ) My small EDC pistol (w/night sights) for home defense? Harder to shoot accurately in a home defense situation IMO. PCC would do much better in that situation and is still pretty small which would make it nice for indoor use. PCCs (with shouldered brace) are much easier to shoot accurately IMO. But everyone has different opinions on home defense guns, and whatever works for them is great. Many good options out there.

My biggest thing about a braced pistol and home defense is if I actually used it, how would that go over in court. Especially in OR.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

My biggest thing about a braced pistol and home defense is if I actually used it, how would that go over in court. Especially in OR.

I hear this kind of concern a lot, including: "you should never have a legal silencer on a home defense gun, you should never have any kind of modification such as a lighter trigger, you should never x, y, z". "U should not mount a light or laser...". I have even heard you should never carry a knife with u that has a blade over 2 inches. Where does it stop? One might as well say, "You should not practice with your gun to get better at shooting because the jury might think u are some crazy gun person, trying to get better at shooting poeple". Therefore u should never join a gun club or range etc etc.

Personally I think one has to follow the law and act responsibly/safely with a firearm. PCCs with a legal shoulder brace are legal in USA (subject to state laws). Beyond that, we have the right to defend ourselves/loved ones in our home with legal firearms and I'm not going to reduce the effectiveness of my legal home defense gun based on fear of someone else's perception of said legal gun. My 2 cents.

 

[Member 34319]

I hear this kind of concern a lot, including: "you should never have a legal silencer on a home defense gun, you should never have any kind of modification such as a lighter trigger, you should never x, y, z". "U should not mount a light or laser...". I have even heard you should never carry a knife with u that has a blade over 2 inches. Where does it stop? One might as well say, "You should not practice with your gun to get better at shooting because the jury might think u are some crazy gun person, trying to get better at shooting poeple". Therefore u should never join a gun club or range etc etc.

Personally I think one has to follow the law and act responsibly/safely with a firearm. PCCs with a legal shoulder brace are legal in USA (subject to state laws). Beyond that, we have the right to defend ourselves/loved ones in our home with legal firearms and I'm not going to reduce the effectiveness of my home defense gun based on fear of someone else's perception of said legal gun. My 2 cents.

The pistol brace is 100% legal to own and have installed on a pistol. I enjoy them and have a handful installed myself.

Im not telling you or others what to do.

I just don't trust Oregon's legal systems.

That's why my concern is using one in an actual self defense situation.

Knowing our DAs and such and watching many decisions thus far, I'd go down for owning an illegal SBR.

 

[Dwesson]

My CZ is one of my favorite guns to take out to the range. It's great for shooting steel, and not having to worry about it getting chewed up at close range.

It will shoot anything you feed it, hot stuff, hollow points, heavy subs, steel cased etc. I don't think I've had any failures in the ~1,500 rounds I have down range with mine. I shoot it primarily suppressed , and it gets dirty but keeps on going. The mags are cheap too.

As far as the $400 to get it going comment. I would imagine at least half that is for the brace. All these guns (MPX/CZ Evo/CMMG Guard/MP5) are really meant to be shot as an SBR with a stock and/or brace.

For mine I replaced the following and I don't think I spent more than $150, some of this stuff was more about my personal preference but certainly works just fine as is from the factory:

• Larger charging handle, I found the stock one to be a little short but this is pretty nit picky
• New grip, the stock one is pretty large, mainly just the bulbous bottom part of it. There was nothing functionally wrong with the angle in my opinion.
• Oversized Paddle mag release, again nothing wrong with the stock one.

The only "required" changes in my opinion were:

• Lighter trigger spring from HBI I think this was $8? There's a replacement trigger that's supposed to be excellent as well.
  
• Safety delete or modification (delete a dremel - free, replace with an AK style up to $25)

The only thing I would add is maybe some covers for the pic rails on the front as they are a little rough. I added a light to mine and it's a great home defense gun.

If you want the cream of the crop in a PCC, take a look at the the B&T APC9 (the new Pro takes Glock mags and has no reciprocating bolt handle) or the B&T GHM9 (Grass Hopper Mouse aka Scorpion Killer).

The APC is better than an MP5 in my opinion (superior ergos and recoil impulse is on par imo), haven't shot the GHM9 yet but if it was available at the time I may have got it instead of the CZ. I think it's only negative is the reciprocating bolt handle.

 

[Dwesson]

The pistol brace is 100% legal to own and have installed on a pistol. I enjoy them and have a handful installed myself.

Im not telling you or others what to do.

I just don't trust Oregon's legal systems.

That's why my concern is using one in an actual self defense situation.

Knowing our DAs and such and watching many decisions thus far, I'd go down for owning an illegal SBR.

That's why you gotta have the throw away gun to put in their hands.

No one cares what you used if they were armed!

 

[Member 34319]

My CZ is one of my favorite guns to take out to the range. It's great for shooting steel, and not having to worry about it getting chewed up at close range.

It will shoot anything you feed it, hot stuff, hollow points, heavy subs, steel cased etc. I don't think I've had any failures in the ~1,500 rounds I have down range with mine. I shoot it primarily suppressed , and it gets dirty but keeps on going. The mags are cheap too.

As far as the $400 to get it going comment. I would imagine at least half that is for the brace. All these guns (MPX/CZ Evo/CMMG Guard/MP5) are really meant to be shot as an SBR with a stock and/or brace.

For mine I replaced the following and I don't think I spent more than $150, some of this stuff was more about my personal preference but certainly works just fine as is from the factory:

• Larger charging handle, I found the stock one to be a little short but this is pretty nit picky
• New grip, the stock one is pretty large, mainly just the bulbous bottom part of it. There was nothing functionally wrong with the angle in my opinion.
• Oversized Paddle mag release, again nothing wrong with the stock one.

The only "required" changes in my opinion were:

• Lighter trigger spring from HBI I think this was $8? There's a replacement trigger that's supposed to be excellent as well.
  
• Safety delete or modification (delete a dremel - free, replace with an AK style up to $25)

The only thing I would add is maybe some covers for the pic rails on the front as they are a little rough. I added a light to mine and it's a great home defense gun.

If you want the cream of the crop in a PCC, take a look at the the B&T APC9 (the new Pro takes Glock mags and has no reciprocating bolt handle) or the B&T GHM9 (Grass Hopper Mouse aka Scorpion Killer).

The APC is better than an MP5 in my opinion (superior ergos and recoil impulse is on par imo), haven't shot the GHM9 yet but if it was available at the time I may have got it instead of the CZ. I think it's only negative is the reciprocating bolt handle.

The B&Ts are ones I haven't had the honor to shoot yet.

I've felt up a Grand Power Stribog and I liked it a lot. I think it's fairly similar to the B&T as far as design goes. Priced much less.

The B&T price tags are very similar to those of MP5s. They are also direct blowback I think? I'd get the roller lock over a direct if I was putting out that amount of coin.

I'm hoping Grand Power brings more options to the US for their Stribog line.

 

[Dwesson]

The B&Ts are ones I haven't had the honor to shoot yet.

I've felt up a Grand Power Stribog and I liked it a lot. I think it's fairly similar to the B&T as far as design goes. Priced much less.

The B&T price tags are very similar to those of MP5s. They are also direct blowback I think? I'd get the roller lock over a direct if I was putting out that amount of coin.

I'm hoping Grand Power brings more options to the US for their Stribog line.

They are direct blow back with a hydraulic damper. I've shot both an MP5 and an APC9, the recoil impulse of both is very similar and the ergos on the APC9 are superior all the way around.

The MP5 was a grail gun for me (thank you 80s action movies) and it was awesome to shoot (in full auto none the less) but if I was only going to get one, honestly I'd get the APC.

Haven't shot the Stribog but they look cool!

 

[ilikegunspdx]

CMMG used to make a banshee/guard (probably still make it?) that was similar to these and pretty highly rated in reviews I saw FWIW. But for me the CMMG was like the MP5, and MPX for that matter, just not worth spending $1500 or more for a PCC. As I recall at the time all the buzz around the GMMG guard was it's "delayed recoil bolt" or whatever they called it. Maybe it's no better in recoil than these other guns I dunno... Scorpian is a lot more affordable and Extar is half of that even. I like the looks of that one in reno911's first post way better than the others I have seen. I'm hoping the PSA mp5 clone is going to be affordable (they say it will be FWIW).

 

[Member 34319]

CMMG used to make a banshee/guard (probably still make it?) that was similar to these and pretty highly rated in reviews I saw FWIW. But for me the CMMG was like the MP5, and MPX for that matter, just not worth spending $1500 or more for a PCC. As I recall at the time all the buzz around the GMMG guard was it's "delayed recoil bolt" or whatever they called it. Maybe it's no better in recoil than these other guns I dunno... Scorpian is a lot more affordable and Extar is half of that even. I like the looks of that one in reno911's first post way better than the others I have seen. I'm hoping the PSA mp5 clone is going to be affordable (they say it will be FWIW).

I own the CMMG Guard. Shooting it side by side with the MPX and MP5K I'll state, in my opinion, it beat the MP5, but lost to the MPX. For recoil only.

It is an AR so ergos are great.

It has a buffer tube so it's less convenient to fold and longer overall.

In my opinion it is the best of most things, but not perfect, to my expectations at least.

I like some aspects of an MP5, lack of last round bolt hold sucks, and is it's greatest weakness compared to others.

I had really high hopes for PSA's AKV, but that was a complete flop.

The Scorpion checks of tons of boxes. The only thing I don't like about it is the magazine. I've been rocking Glock mags with everything so switching or adding would suck. The set up I posted in my OP is pretty much how I would set mine up if I got one. Which might still happen.

 

[Dwesson]

CMMG used to make a banshee/guard (probably still make it?) that was similar to these and pretty highly rated in reviews I saw FWIW. But for me the CMMG was like the MP5, and MPX for that matter, just not worth spending $1500 or more for a PCC. As I recall at the time all the buzz around the GMMG guard was it's "delayed recoil bolt" or whatever they called it. Maybe it's no better in recoil than these other guns I dunno... Scorpian is a lot more affordable and Extar is half of that even. I like the looks of that one in reno911's first post way better than the others I have seen. I'm hoping the PSA mp5 clone is going to be affordable (they say it will be FWIW).

The Guard is about $1,100 and it takes Glock mags. That's a big selling point to some people. If you want to run a huge variety of ammo suppressed I think that's another check in the box for a blow back style system vs the MPX.

I like Sig, and the MPX felt great to me but I felt like I was paying a premium for the Sig name.

 

[Dwesson]

I own the CMMG Guard. Shooting it side by side with the MPX and MP5K I'll state, in my opinion, it beat the MP5, but lost to the MPX. For recoil only.

It is an AR so ergos are great.

It has a buffer tube so it's less convenient to fold and longer overall.

In my opinion it is the best of most things, but not perfect, to my expectations at least.

I like some aspects of an MP5, lack of last round bolt hold sucks, and is it's greatest weakness compared to others.

I had really high hopes for PSA's AKV, but that was a complete flop.

The Scorpion checks of tons of boxes. The only thing I don't like about it is the magazine. I've been rocking Glock mags with everything so switching or adding would suck. The set up I posted in my OP is pretty much how I would set mine up if I got one. Which might still happen.

Not sure if it would be compatible with the Guard but I'd check this out and you might have best of both worlds (compactness of a folder style and awesome recoil of the Guard).

https://angstadtarms.com/sub-compact-stock/

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Not sure if it would be compatible with the Guard but I'd check this out and you might have best of both worlds (compactness of a folder style and awesome recoil of the Guard).

Smallest AR-15 Stock | Angstadt Arms SCW Stock

Interesting stock. Too bad it's a stock and not a pistol brace though. I assume something with a short barrel and that stock would have to be SBR'd?

I assume they use a smaller buffer like dead foot arms AR15 Folding Stock Adaptor Kits | Dead Foot Arms | Modified Cycle System ?

I like Law tactical the best of all the AR (buffer-tube) folders from reviews I have seen but I haven't used any of the buffer-tube folders. Law Tactical AR Folding Stock Adapter Gen 3-M

 

[Dwesson]

Interesting stock. Too bad it's a stock and not a pistol brace though. I assume something with a short barrel and that stock would have to be SBR'd?

I assume they use a smaller buffer like dead foot arms AR15 Folding Stock Adaptor Kits | Dead Foot Arms | Modified Cycle System ?

I like Law tactical the best of all the AR (buffer-tube) folders from reviews I have seen but I haven't used any of the buffer-tube folders. Law Tactical AR Folding Stock Adapter Gen 3-M

Yeah would require a tax stamp unfortunately. Maybe they'll make a brace version

The CMMG folks are pretty helpful, wouldn't be surprised if they know if any of those folders are compatible or not.

 

[B5Ben]

I've only had the scorpion S1 for about a month and finally got to test out the few mods I felt were needed, less the form 1, but will at some point.

Picked up the Yetiwurks grip, safety delete, trigger shoe, and HB springs. That was all of $58 or something shipped. Dropped the trigger pull down to ~5 pounds with a short reset. Much improved and very economical.

 

[B5Ben]

Also got to play with a couple of the original (and legendary) PCC's at a local range. We rented a FA MP5 first and ran about 300 rounds through it with a couple misfeed issues. Then we had one we couldn't recover and turns out the bolt sheared. They let us pick something else and my buddy chose the Thompson. Vids are too big to upload but it was a great day with PCC's all around. Definitely checked off a couple bucket list guns today.

 

[Makers Mark]

Great information in this thread. What a great time to be a firearms enthusiast (aside from the ongoing assault on the 2A, but that's another topic) with all the options available these days.

At a time when I should be hyper-focused on getting the remaining semi-auto rifles before July 1st, I find myself fascinated with these 'pistols', Scorpion, Extar, Cmmg, etc. So much so that I've already purchased a half dozen Scorpion mags. On the other hand, this is my first look at the Extar and Cmmg options. And to add to that, we are a Glock family and have a good stock of Glock magazines.

I would see this as a range toy primarily. It might grow into an HD gun eventually. Not sure about suppressors but I suspect I will go down that road eventually.

I know these are basic questions but have to start somewhere.
Looking through the CZ catalog....
The pistol in the OP is the EVO 3 S1 Pistol with aftermarket adapter/folding stock? About these adapters, are they somewhat standardized with regard to their attachment points to the gun and to the brace? I have purchased a couple of SB3 braces for use in the future and am wondering if they could be used on any pistol - scorpion, extar, cmmg?

This is the Scorpion Evo 3 S1 pistol with flash can and folding brace.
CZ Scorpion EVO 3 S1 Pistol w/ Flash Can and Folding Brace - CZ-USA
Any comments on having the suppressor tucked inside the rail like that. Looks better from a cosmetic standpoint I guess, but what about practicality? Are suppressors standardized such that the OD, and length is the same so that just about any suppressor would fit in that space?

Thanks