School lock downs

[VW_Factor]

Keeping students in one place doesn't seem like a good idea given that if they are actually in danger, they themselves are the targets.. Putting all of them together in cute little groups just seems like the wrong thing to do.

I understand having hallways clear to make it easier for LEOs to find whatever it is they are looking for, but there has to be a better way of doing that, as well as making sure that parents can have access to their children.

on the side note about attendance.. Do all of the schools have computers and fancy attendance software and networks laid out to make it effective, or just the new fancy schools? Its been a few years since I've been into any classrooms, but I saw no signs of computers anywhere for teachers to use for such things.

 

[1stIDFMP]

I am most certainly not outraged as you suspect. In fact, I don't currently have any children let alone children in school.

I have a few simple questions, and thus far one has been halfway answered.

Under whose authority does ANYONE at the school have to keep a parent away from picking up their child, ESPECIALLY in a dangerous situation. I would imagine I'd want to get my child out of their ASAP.

As well, the tactic of locking down and herding the students, faculty into groups I imagine as a great "tactical" error. In a school shooter scenario, I can see it leading to cause more injury and deaths than it would solve.

Leading too, is there anything positive about the tactic?

Finding students at the end of the day? Matching them to their parents? Maybe things have changed quite a bit since I was in school, but I'd never seen school authorities "search for lost students" or disallow certain people from picking up any students. I don't buy that as a good reason, let alone ever happening to begin with. (perhaps at a pre-school or kindergarten, but elementary, middle or high school?)

I'm not sure what kind of answer you want, because when it's answered, you produce more questions. You started off wondering under whose authority the police have in locking down a school. Then when it's answered that it's not the police who lock it down, but the school, you want to know what right they have in preventing a parent from picking up their child. When that is addressed, you now want to question the tactics of the police.

So I have a question. How much tactical and police training do you have, to question the police? More importantly, why are you so interested in police tactics, for active shooters, when you don't have any children - especially in the school?................................

 

[Sling Blade]

Keeping students in one place doesn't seem like a good idea given that if they are actually in danger, they themselves are the targets.. Putting all of them together in cute little groups just seems like the wrong thing to do.

I understand having hallways clear to make it easier for LEOs to find whatever it is they are looking for, but there has to be a better way of doing that, as well as making sure that parents can have access to their children.

on the side note about attendance.. Do all of the schools have computers and fancy attendance software and networks laid out to make it effective, or just the new fancy schools? Its been a few years since I've been into any classrooms, but I saw no signs of computers anywhere for teachers to use for such things.

Well, keeping them in classrooms has to be better than trying to clear a building of bad guys with kids running and screaming through the halls. It may group them up, but remember it was at Columbine where teachers and students barracaded themselves in rooms that showed that it was the best way to stay away from shooters. Kids in the halls were the main targets.

When the school has one's children they are under the protection of the school, and having parents show up to clog driveways and halls is not the quick answer to clearing it of danger as soon as possible - it would only muddy up things.

I do not know if all schools have attendance monitoring on computers. I do reckon that all schools have a lockdown policy. Like all things, people must plan for the worst these days.

 

[VW_Factor]

I have been unable to find an answer in regards to the legal authority of such an action for a public building, especially in regards to keeping parents away from their children. Who has that authority? So far, in this thread, its been told that its the school administration that orders the lockdown. Do they have the authority to do that to begin with?

Have have seen no answer to that, let alone a citation.

You wonder why I ask questions? Aren't you curious?

 

[1stIDFMP]

I have been unable to find an answer in regards to the legal authority of such an action for a public building, especially in regards to keeping parents away from their children. Who has that authority? So far, in this thread, its been told that its the school administration that orders the lockdown. Do they have the authority to do that to begin with?

Have have seen no answer to that, let alone a citation.

You wonder why I ask questions? Aren't you curious?

Since you are the one wanting these answers - why don't you look them up instead of having other people do the work for you? I know, people answered your questions, but that wasn't good enough for you - and you want to see it in writing. Kind of reminds of the old saying about not asking a question you won't like the answer to (and if it's not an old saying, I just made it up.....).

And yes, I'm curious why you are asking these questions - that's why I asked you (see above) - but you choose not to answer (yet ask people if they wonder why you ask the questions)........ I find this amusing.

 

[mkwerx]

I have been unable to find an answer in regards to the legal authority of such an action for a public building, especially in regards to keeping parents away from their children. Who has that authority? So far, in this thread, its been told that its the school administration that orders the lockdown. Do they have the authority to do that to begin with?

Have have seen no answer to that, let alone a citation.

You wonder why I ask questions? Aren't you curious?

Honestly - it seems to be an assumed authority, either derived from policy enacted by the district alone, or because schools have been sued and judged to be responsible for the safety of the children on their campus.

As for locking children and teachers into class rooms - this is the safest way to execute the lockdown and allow police to search the campuses. Anyone NOT locked into a classroom or office is suspect and gets detained. And the police can the facilities room by room - and deal with maybe 30-40 people (mostly children) at a time, instead of trying to conduct a search with everyone rushing through halls trying to escape. Not to mention that having the children out in the halls is making them easier targets for shooters or predators - whoever the cause of the lockdown may be - they could be killed or kidnapped much easier than if they're locked in a class room.

Also - from my experience, school classrooms generally feature heavy doors with solid locks, they won't be easy for someone to simply kick in if they're on a killing spree - so there is at least a good barrier between the children and the criminals (not saying they CAN'T force a door, but they'll have to work at it - unless schools are cheaping out and going with crappy thin chinese made doors now.)

I will say that there should be a system in place for parents to claim their children if the lockdown goes beyond normal school hours, or if it lasts for more than an hour or two. There is a reason that districts have you fill out papers when you register your child, including information on whom they may release your child/children to. Usually this is a limited list - Mom & Dad plus a couple of emergency backups. Anyone else the parent has to notify and authorize the school of - through a phone call or a note (granted, this isn't the most secure way).

Have you considered calling your local district superintendent's office and asking them?

 

[Tangent123123]

Two minutes on google pulled up his.

In loco parentis

[Latin, in the place of a parent.] The legal doctrine under which an individual assumes parental rights, duties, and obligations without going through the formalities of legal Adoption.

In loco parentis is a legal doctrine describing a relationship similar to that of a parent to a child. It refers to an individual who assumes parental status and responsibilities for another individual, usually a young person, without formally adopting that person. For example, legal guardians are said to stand in loco parentis with respect to their wards, creating a relationship that has special implications for insurance and Workers' Compensation law.

By far the most common usage of in loco parentis relates to teachers and students. For hundreds of years, the English common-law concept shaped the rights and responsibilities of public school teachers: until the late nineteenth century, their legal authority over students was as broad as that of parents. Changes in U.S. education, concurrent with a broader reading by courts of the rights of students, began bringing the concept into disrepute by the 1960s. Cultural changes, however, brought a resurgence of the doctrine in the twenty-first century.

Taking root in colonial American schools, in loco parentis was an idea derived from English Common Law. The colonists borrowed it from the English ideal of schools having not only educational but also moral responsibility for students. The idea especially suited the puritanical values of the colonists, and after the American Revolution, it persisted in elementary and high schools, colleges, and universities. The judiciary respected it: like their English counterparts, U.S. courts in the nineteenth century were unwilling to interfere when students brought grievances, particularly in the area of rules, discipline, and expulsion.

... It goes on with more details and references and is really quite interesting.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/In+loco+parentis

 

[Sling Blade]

Thanks for your efforts looking that up, Tangent.

 

[Tangent123123]

Is that sarcasm? *grin*. I'm at work and my sarcasm detector has overloaded.

There seemed like a bit if a kerfuffle answering the specific question. But I found the article surprisingly interesting and worth the read.

 

[VW_Factor]

Does loco parentis continue after arrival of the actual parent I wonder?

I have have thoughts of contacting our local supers or board members to see what their answers are.. They may end up being as vague or as legal as a fake handshake. I wonder if school districts have a lawyer of sorts that deal with legal matters that may actually know what law(s) allows this..

 

[Sling Blade]

Does loco parentis continue after arrival of the actual parent I wonder?

I have have thoughts of contacting our local supers or board members to see what their answers are.. They may end up being as vague or as legal as a fake handshake. I wonder if school districts have a lawyer of sorts that deal with legal matters that may actually know what law(s) allows this..

They gots lawyers for sure. Every time my wife meets with a parent a lawyer is present. This is due to so many frivolous lawsuits against schools. (e.g., "My child deserves more than a C on her report card and if you won't change the grade we are going to sue!")

 

[Sling Blade]

Is that sarcasm? *grin*. I'm at work and my sarcasm detector has overloaded.

There seemed like a bit if a kerfuffle answering the specific question. But I found the article surprisingly interesting and worth the read.

No sarcasm today - the sun is out and even I can not muster up anything too negative!

I too found the article interesting.

 

[1stIDFMP]

They may end up being as vague or as legal as a fake handshake.

Speaking of vague - why have you not answered my questions?.......................

 

[DAPSRT]

I'm not sure there has been any legal precedent set on if they can keep your kid from you.... I'm not sure it has come up. What I can say is that there certainly is a legal liability if they go into lockdown and don't do their best to keep your kid safe. Depending on the situation, they're not going to let you in, or go get your kids because there is a safety risk involved, not only for your kids but the hundreds of other kids in the school. They may not know if you are the safety risk (it has happened before with other parents), where precisely the safety risk in the school is, or if they are putting your kid in harms way just because you want to get them out.

I would say that loco parentis is probably going to be in effect until they can safely get your kid to you. It's what I would expect and realistically what is reasonable depending on the circumstances at the time. Different situations dictate different levels of security.

A lockdown essentially works on the same principle a car door lock works. Lock the door (to the school or individual classrooms) and make it more difficult for the BG to get in, he'll pass it by for the easier target. They will likely cover the windows and put the kids in the safest corner of the room they can possibly be in to avoid being an attraction for the BG.

All schools have protocols in place, under what circumstances they are implemented and so on. As parents, I would recommend that you push for more school lockdown training for the school as a whole. It really is the safest thing to do in school shooter situations. The schools do very regular fire drills but NO kids have perished due to fires for a VERY long time. School violence/shooters/etc have happened much more often and yet we do little to no lockdown training!!