Scenarios

[Kimber Custom]

I think one of the most important aspects of training is to make decisions on how you would handle a given situation in advance.

Feel free to respond to a posted scenario or post your own scenario.

Unless otherwise stated all scenarios assume you are armed, have access to a phone and the bad guy does not know you are there.

Scenario #1
3 AM, house is dark. You hear creaking floorboards coming from upstairs as someone is trying to move quietly down the hall. You have two teenage daughters in the house with upstairs bedrooms. What do you do?

What if the girls aren't supposed to be home?

Scenario #2
Man with a small caliber gun gets into the passenger side of your car and says drive. What do you do?

Does your decision change if you suspect the gun is fake/pellet gun?

Scenario #3
I tried to copy the image from the Humanoid Paper Target thread but it wasn't being very coopertive. At any rate: Post #8 has an image of two shooters (pistol & shotgun) with a friendly behind them. Assuming you are the target of their agression who do you shoot at first?

Scenario #4
Bad guy has taken a human shield (think classic hollywood). You are 15' away. Do you take the shot?

Does your decision change if you know the person they took to be the shield?
Does your decision change if you are 25' away?
Does your decision change if the bad guy is not facing you (think you walked into something in progress)

Scenario #5 (courtesy of NK777 in the Sheepdog thread)
24 hour quicky mart gas station. I'm in back looking for something to quench my thirst (I love gatorade) because I've been on the road for a long time. Armed robber runs in, points a gun at the clerk, and demands cash. What do you do?

Does your decision change if there are 2 armed men?

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[ZA_Survivalist]

I've thought about #2 a lot.
Though I'd risk serious injury or death, I'd think that increasing my speed to 45 or 50 and slamming into an embankment or a dividing wall would be the way to go, if I'm going to die or be taken hostage, I'd like to go out on my own terms.

As for the others, I have responses but I could go on and on..

 

[Ravenous]

Are any of the assailants a minority? If it keeps Jessie Jackson from showing up I'll take the bullet!

Seriously though, that is a tough one. If I had two daughters, I would workout a safe word. Like I yell chocolate and they need to say vanilla or something silly like that.

The second he grabbed the latch he'd see the business end of my ruger. If he managed to jump in before I realized what was going on, I would drive until I could disarm him or create a diversion. I would have no problem crashing my car into a stationary object to create that diversion.

I have no idea who, I'd shoot first.

As of now I don't have the confidence to take the shot. With proper training I would probably take the shot at 15 feet, but the circumstance could change my decision.

 

[Kimber Custom]

#1 Is hard. Is it a boyfriend trying to sneak in/out or even one of the girls. I think this is a scenario that requires a loud, authoritative voice and a very bright flashlight before I pull the trigger.

If the girls aren't supposed to be home I think I would call 911 and hold my ground in the bedroom.

#2 I agree on the crash the car strategy if necessary. It's hard to picture jumping out of the car because of the seatbelt and my car/size isn't very condusive to quick exits.

If I thought the gun was fake I might try a stomp the break/grab the gun maneuver but I would have to be really confident it wasn't a .22 before I tried something like that.

#3 I'm sure the shotgun should scare me more but the .45 draws my eye first and he has the probability of more rounds to shoot than the shotgun.

#4 I will take the shot. Nothing changes my mind on that. I know what I can do in a staged, sighted shot and I don't know what they will do if I let them go/put down my gun.

#5 This one is a little harder IMO. I don't think I call out any warning on this one for to keep him from shooting the clerk. I think I take an aimed shot and put the bad guy down. If there is more than one bad guy it's a toss up between start shooting and just take cover and hope things pan out.

 

[Kimber Custom]

Situation 4, 5: I would soil my pants and hope the stink didn't attract any bad guys.

 

[SSG]

There is no 'debate' on whether scenario training is proper...it's one of the best methods to making the training 'as real as possible to one is prepared'..it also allows us, and experts, the opportunity to find a solution....

The 'debate' is in how to deal with the scenario given...those with bad solutions, arguing to the 'bitter end' that they are right, when in fact they are not...find a very Darwinian consequence to thier lack of intelligence.

- A thought...

Many peeps think many scenarios have to be thought out, and decided ahead of time, as the scenario might not allow time to consider the right course of action...this is obvious...but many take this concept to accept that 'not thinking under stress' is somehow preferable to a rational calm individiual who can think and act quickly on thier feet, especialy to a changing, dynamic situation...

The former group is usualy part of a group of non-thinkers, followers really, that have chosen to allow others to make decisions for them...it's easier for them...

Simply put, and this is found everywhere, especialy aviation...when a 'non-thinker' is in situation that requires some thought in applying their knowledge to a new situation...the inevitable Darwinian result occurs.

 

[spengo]

Scenario #1
Don't have kids and don't ever plan to but I guess I'd wait to see if it sounds like more than someone just going pee, then go up with a handgun that has a flashlight mounted to it (turned off) as quietly as I can. If I see someone that does not look like a teenage girl point and turn on the light. Same for if they aren't supposed to be home. If it's a bad guy tell them to get down on the ground and spread, then call 911. If they are armed, it's tap tap slaying bodies good to go, doesn't matter if it's knife or gun or crowbar.

Scenario #2
Draw and shoot. Kinda hard from sitting in a car, but action is faster than reaction and hopefully he won't be expecting it. If I am positive it's an airsoft or something I'll laugh, draw, and tell him to gtfo.

Scenario #3
Pistol. The shotgun guy looks like he's got like a .410 or something tiny and he's firing from the hip. Seems like he's less likely to hit me on the first shot. The pistol guy is teacupping, but he might be able to get off at least one accurate shot if I went for the shotgun guy first. Of course, this is with the time to think about what I'm doing. In a dynamic situation I'm not sure which I'd shoot first. I'd probably just go for shoot BOTH as fast as I can.

Scenario #4
15', draw and shoot head
25', draw, cock to single action, and shoot head (the benefit of carrying a full size pistol is this is very doable)
If he's facing the other direction and it doesn't involve anyone I know personally, I guess I'd wait awhile to make sure the situation is clear to me then if it's clear he's the only bad guy around and there is no immediate danger to myself, clear that he's about to kill the other person, draw and shoot him in the head.

Scenario #5 (courtesy of NK777 in the Sheepdog thread)
Shoot him, lol. If I can do something to save a life with minimal risk to my own, sure. I don't think that's super "sheepdog"ish. 2 guys? Eh, shoot 'em both. I do enough IPSC and IDPA that 2 targets at close range standing next to each other is no biggie. I am confident I can get both before they can react to my presence.

In general if they have a weapon of any sort and it's pointed at me or someone I know, I'm shooting, no telling people to drop their weapons or any of that bs. If it involves people other than myself and there are no weapons involved I will do nothing. I'm not going to bring a gun into a fight that isn't mine that is just a punch up. If there are weapons, I'll just sit back and wait to make sure the situation is absolutely clear to me and *if* I decide I can safely remove the threat with minimal risk to myself I will do so. If I have people I care about with me, I will be getting them out of the area first.

 

[Riot]

I think one of the most important aspects of training is to make decisions on how you would handle a given situation in advance.

Feel free to respond to a posted scenario or post your own scenario.

Unless otherwise stated all scenarios assume you are armed, have access to a phone and the bad guy does not know you are there.

Scenario #1
3 AM, house is dark. You hear creaking floorboards coming from upstairs as someone is trying to move quietly down the hall. You have two teenage daughters in the house with upstairs bedrooms. What do you do?

What if the girls aren't supposed to be home?

Scenario #2
Man with a small caliber gun gets into the passenger side of your car and says drive. What do you do?

Does your decision change if you suspect the gun is fake/pellet gun?

Scenario #3
I tried to copy the image from the Humanoid Paper Target thread but it wasn't being very coopertive. At any rate: Post #8 has an image of two shooters (pistol & shotgun) with a friendly behind them. Assuming you are the target of their agression who do you shoot at first?

Scenario #4
Bad guy has taken a human shield (think classic hollywood). You are 15' away. Do you take the shot?

Does your decision change if you know the person they took to be the shield?
Does your decision change if you are 25' away?
Does your decision change if the bad guy is not facing you (think you walked into something in progress)

Scenario #5 (courtesy of NK777 in the Sheepdog thread)
24 hour quicky mart gas station. I'm in back looking for something to quench my thirst (I love gatorade) because I've been on the road for a long time. Armed robber runs in, points a gun at the clerk, and demands cash. What do you do?

Does your decision change if there are 2 armed men?

Scenario #1:
A- I would silently arm myself and have my wife call the police. I would tell her to arm herself and to shoot anyone that came through the bedroom door that didn't identify themselves. I would then try to go upstairs as quietly as possible and get between my daughters and where I think the subject is. My firearm in the house has a flashlight attached to it- I would sit and wait in a defensive until the subject either approached me or left. If the subject was between my daughters and myself, I would go room to room clearing each room as quietly as possible.

B- If nobody is suppossed to be in the house, I would set up a defensive downstairs; gun drawn at the stairway. I would then call 9-1-1, and once I had the opperator on the phone (with the recorder going) I would yell to the subject(s) that if they proceeded downstairs I would take that as hostile intent and shoot anyone that came down.

Scenario #2:
I would do anything the man asked me to do if I believed the gun was a real gun. If an opportunity presented itself to disarm the subject or take action (draw and fire at him first with my own firearm) I would. I have no idea why this individual didn't just tell me to get out the car or what their intentions are....I also don't know if he is going to take me somewhere where he has friends and I would no longer have any opportunity to fight back.

Short of reading the "Crossman" label on the side of the gun I would treat it as a real firearm unless I knew for a fact that it wasn't a real gun.

Scenario #3:
I would run for cover as fast and as far as possible....then shoot any target I see first. If you anylize who you should be shooting first, you probably are just going to end up a statistic.

Scenario #4:
Hostage situation? I would run for cover, set up a defensive and call the police. If I knew the person, I would try to shoot the hostage taker...especially if they were a relative. 25' changes the ballgame. I would seek cover, attempt to call for help and communicate with the hostage taker.

If I was behind the subject, I would aim for the brain stem, take a knee and shoot the hostage taker. That way, if the bullet some how passed through- it would have an upwards angle and should avoid collateral damage (not to mention it should improve accuracy).

Scenario #5:
Well, I'm going to have to divide this scenario in two parts since my wife works at a gas station...and was robbed recently while I was on the phone with her.

For a random gas station-
I would just wait for the bad guys to come outside...meanwhile I would be calling the police, getting the plates of any nearby vehicle(s), looking for "lookouts" and reporting anything I see to the police...to include telling them that I am armed and waiting outside- what I am wearing and what I am driving.

For my wife's job-
I would do the same, except I wouldn't wait outside...I would sneak up on the place, trying to see if I notice multiple subjects and assess from there. If there is only one, I would shoot to nuetralize the subject...no questions about it. Anyone armed and putting my wife in imminent bodily harm or threat of death will be shot immediatly.

I would rather the subject(s) focussing their attention/fire on me instead of my wife.

 

[Riot]

Here's a scenario for you all....apply this to anywhere where you feel appropriate (job, school, ect.)

This is one of my main scenarios I press into my head when my wife and I go shopping.

SCENARIO
You're in the mall with your wife...you hear gunshots somewhere in the mall....you're in the center of the mall (food court) and have no easy access to an exit. What do you do? You and your wife are both armed...

you have on you-
*Cell phone
*Flashlight
*Knife
*Glock 22 (.40 S&W) with 2 magazines loaded with 15rnds each of 180gr Federal Hydrashocks

your wife has-
*Cell phone
*Kel-Tec P3AT (.380 Auto) with 6rnds of 90gr Hornady Personal Defense
*Mace
*C2 Taser

 

[Riot]

Just FYI, I think some of you guys need to do more force-on-force training (i.e. paintball, airsoft, ect.) than just shoot at static, paper targets. When someone has a firearm drawn down on you or another person (i.e. Scenario #3 and #4) before you even have your gun out of the holster, it is IMPAIRATIVE you seek cover first and foremost.

I don't care if you are Billy The Kid himself...you will get shot before you can draw.

 

[spengo]

Just FYI, I think some of you guys need to do more force-on-force training (i.e. paintball, airsoft, ect.) than just shoot at static, paper targets. When someone has a firearm drawn down on you or another person (i.e. Scenario #3 and #4) before you even have your gun out of the holster, it is IMPAIRATIVE you seek cover first and foremost.

I don't care if you are Billy The Kid himself...you will get shot before you can draw.

I always heard it was better to draw and shoot first and that bullets hitting targets is also a form of cover.

I *would* like to do some force on force training though... Is there anywhere that you can get simmunition and train with it around here? (apart from being LEO that is)

 

[Kimber Custom]

SCENARIO
You're in the mall with your wife...you hear gunshots somewhere in the mall....you're in the center of the mall (food court) and have no easy access to an exit. What do you do? You and your wife are both armed...

For me my response would depend on what kind of shots and how frequently I'm hearing them.

If it's a quick exchange of fire at the far end of the mall my wife and I would be going in the other direction sticking close to the wall for cover and calling 911. I would not draw my weapon for fear of being shot by police who are looking for the shooter. If I saw somone runing my way waiving a gun I would attempt to stop and hold them for Police.

If it sounds like a rampage I would feel more compelled to move toward the gunfire and look for an opportunity to intervein. I would have my wife behind me on the cell giving 911 our position and what we are doing. With my weapon at low ready I would use cover to move to the shooter and take the first prudent shot.

 

[phathom]

I *would* like to do some force on force training though... Is there anywhere that you can get simmunition and train with it around here? (apart from being LEO that is)

Threat Dynamics. It's in Hillsboro, on Cornelius Pass, just off the 26. I haven't been there yet, but have heard great things about it and I see it quite a bit on the Outdoor channel on Wednesdays.

They have a 270 degree screen display that you get to go in and run different interactive scenarios on. You have the option of either going with their modified glock 17 or their modified AR15.

I heard you can also bring your own ar15 and they can swap the bolt out to make it work with their system, might be able to do the same with your glock.

They run a co2/IR system so it actually cycles the gun with recoil and has a limit of shots per magazine as the glock or ar would, making mag changes mandatory as it would be in real life.

They also have a taser belt you can wear so you feel when you are hit and have to work through the pain. There are bad guys, innocents, hostages, different environments, etc. I definitely want to go try it out one of these days, maybe next weekend

 

[Riot]

Not only have I experienced the real bullets but have quite a bit of experience with paintball. I don't want to sound like I am bragging but don't know how better to get my point across so here it is- I use to play it at the national level and didn't meet any opponents better. People FREAK out when you attack them. I mean FREAK! Seriously.

I could go into a building against opponents in numbers waiting for me and come out clean while every one of them was shot to crap. I did this consistently. It is amazing what pressure does to people. You can take the best shooter out there and it means absolutely nothing under pressure. I had one certain opponent that always stood out to me on Ironmen because of his ability to trade shots with me for long periods of time. He was hard to advance on so if we were both on the same flank it was going to be a long day...

I have also seen people that play paintball well but freak when the real bullets start flying. That is another thing to consider. To me paintball with structures and woods scenarios is the closest to the real thing. But I haven't experienced the simunitions which would even be more so.

One thing I always noticed in paintball was that inexperienced LEO and Military always ran for cover and always got shot up. The guys that have seen and done a thing or two did pretty good in the game.

Obviously cover is necessary sometimes but it may get you killed in a hurry just trying to get to it. Not to mention you are in a defensive state if being advanced on. Bad guys travel in numbers quite often too so if they are coming you better be ready to fight whether you are covered or not.

You missed my point...paintball means you have a firearm at the ready and in your hands- you readily have the means to defend yourself and send supressive fire. When you have your firearm still in the holster, and you are facing an armed subject that is drawing down on you-

You are already at a disadvantage and should take cover.

 

[Riot]

For me my response would depend on what kind of shots and how frequently I'm hearing them.

If it's a quick exchange of fire at the far end of the mall my wife and I would be going in the other direction sticking close to the wall for cover and calling 911. I would not draw my weapon for fear of being shot by police who are looking for the shooter. If I saw somone runing my way waiving a gun I would attempt to stop and hold them for Police.

If it sounds like a rampage I would feel more compelled to move toward the gunfire and look for an opportunity to intervein. I would have my wife behind me on the cell giving 911 our position and what we are doing. With my weapon at low ready I would use cover to move to the shooter and take the first prudent shot.

Food for thought...

*There are hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people that carry firearms on a daily basis. if you go walking through the mall with a firearm at the ready, you will probably get shot by another person carrying a firearm- whether it is an off-duty officer or another CCW holder.

 

[Riot]

Are any of the assailants a minority? If it keeps Jessie Jackson from showing up I'll take the bullet!

Seriously though, that is a tough one. If I had two daughters, I would workout a safe word. Like I yell chocolate and they need to say vanilla or something silly like that.

The second he grabbed the latch he'd see the business end of my ruger. If he managed to jump in before I realized what was going on, I would drive until I could disarm him or create a diversion. I would have no problem crashing my car into a stationary object to create that diversion.

I have no idea who, I'd shoot first.

As of now I don't have the confidence to take the shot. With proper training I would probably take the shot at 15 feet, but the circumstance could change my decision.

This is a GREAT idea...now you're thinking! My wife and I have a safe word and a safe phrase in case I walk in when she is at work and is having problems with a customer.

Once she says the phrase, it is time for them to leave...

 

[SSG]

Well I think that we have change this idea of either or... standing and shooting vs diving for cover concept...

Under most scenarios I would be moving and shooting, better yet, moving toward cover and shooting at the same time....

Even the best of them don't have much experience shooting a moving target...

I think paint ball, simunition and all that is great stuff....

Some good points about stress...some guys fold for a variety of reasons....but fold they do....

 

[Riot]

How long does it take you to draw and shoot?

That is a scary place to be when drawn down on for sure. I've done it to people and they change attitude real quick. When they know they have no chance you can see their mind thinking and changing right in front of you like nothing else.

By the way I have been in that position. Been there laying on the ground shot already with my gun holstered. If I was to try and get to cover I would be dead right now. It took less than a second to draw and start shooting and change the tone of the gunfight. I will never forget the scared look in his eyes. Never. It's amazing the powerful detail that is prevalent in a gunfight. I knew I was going to get him even if it meant more bullets in me and just like paintball the mouse does get it in the end. The vocal sounds I will never forget either.

On the moving to cover- I have no doubt that if I am moving to cover that I am also sending bullets at my threat ASAP. Otherwise there is nothing to stop him from making accurate shots and me ending up dead. Confidence will not be something a bad guy has going against me. I will not allow it. Run for cover like a scared mouse and see who has the smile on their face. Anybody that thinks they can just run for cover and everything will be ok should take a second look at what can happen in reality. I believe that bullets are a form of cover.

Well my friend...it sounds more like you refused to quit and had the right mentality to survive anyways.