SBR/pistol vs bull pup

[Boboclown]

My guess is import laws and a lack of need/want for that to be a thing. Bullpups are already short enough as is, so people probably don't feel a need to have it get any shorter.

Though there are bullpups that would be a SBR if they were here, such as the military version of the X95.

 

[Vorpalis]

...what's wrong with a short barrel bullpup?

I know of at least one person who has SBR'd an X95. Having a shorter barrel than works in the SAR's chassis was one of the factors behind developing the X95. I've read that Israel uses them with 13" - 15" barrels, so better ballistics and less concussion than a 7.5" - 11" AR, and much shorter than an M4 or SAR.

 

[Boboclown]

Steyr AUG Barrel 14
There's also a 14" aug barrel apparently. So really nothing wrong with it, but it looks like its something you'd have to do here (need clarification on whether or not SBRs can be imported, for civilian sale that is, I think no but idk). Not sure if its available to buy. Probably is if you look around, I tried and couldn't find anything but information.

I've read that Israel uses them with 13" - 15" barrels

The X95 the Israelis have is a 13" barrel. The 15" is the CTAR.
The X95 the IDF uses:

CTAR:

 

[IronMonster]

I actually spent quite a bit of dough to make my 9mm Tavor longer, but only a couple inches".

 

[Flopsweat]

View attachment 348272 I actually spent quite a bit of dough to make my 9mm Tavor longer, but only about 3".

Looks like it shoots EMP. Or loving thoughts and unicorn kisses.

 

[Libertas7]

My guess is import laws and a lack of need/want for that to be a thing. Bullpups are already short enough as is, so people probably don't feel a need to have it get any shorter.

Though there are bullpups that would be a SBR if they were here, such as the military version of the X95.

I know of at least one person who has SBR'd an X95. Having a shorter barrel than works in the SAR's chassis was one of the factors behind developing the X95. I've read that Israel uses them with 13" - 15" barrels, so better ballistics and less concussion than a 7.5" - 11" AR, and much shorter than an M4 or SAR.

I guess I should have used one of these, in my post.

 

[IronMonster]

Looks like it shoots EMP. Or loving thoughts and unicorn kisses.

Agreed, it's totally weird looking, like a bad movie prop.

But it's a suppressed rifle with a fixed stock with an overall length of 29 3/4". So, you know. You make friends with the ugly.

 

[Boboclown]

I guess I should have used one of these, in my post.

Yeah, you should have... Tbh, if I were to SBR any bullpup it would only be the X95 (and only if I could get it to look like what the IDF uses). That'd probably be the only thing that'd get me to get a X95 tbh.

So, you know. You make friends with the ugly.

That's not what they told me in Kindergarten.

 

[Flopsweat]

Agreed, it's totally weird looking, like a bad movie prop.

But it's a suppressed rifle with a fixed stock with an overall length of 29 3/4". So, you know. You make friends with the ugly.

Is there a rectangular suppressor inside there? Nice bodywork.

 

[Flopsweat]

That's not what they told me in Kindergarten.

That's what they told my classmates.

 

[IronMonster]

Is there a rectangular suppressor inside there? Nice bodywork.

The handguard and can are all one piece, it's a unit made by Ratwerks. Only available for the 9mm version

 

[Flopsweat]

The handguard and can are all one piece, it's a unit made by Ratwerks. Only available for the 9mm version

Whatever it is, it will probably be in the next Halo. Or should be.

 

[American123]

I own Tavor's and Keltec RFB's in 24in configuration. I am a huge fan of bull pups but only if they are done right! IMO the Tavor was the first well done bullpup because it had sufficient rail for iron sights. The AUG, incredibly ahead of its time, did not provide enough space for effective iron sights IMO.

Back to the topic at hand, pistols, sbr's and bullpups. Personally I want to fill out the least amount of paperwork possible and am not interested in paying additional fees, tax stamps, ect and I am also not a big fan of the massive blast that occurs at the end of rifle chambered pistols / sbr's

The only worthwhile reason I believe to own a AR/AK pistol is so that you can keep it loaded while driving your vehicle with a CPL. Since it by law is considered a pistol you can legally drive with it loaded compared to driving with a loaded rifle in your car is against the law.

 

[Boboclown]

The AUG, incredibly ahead of its time, did not provide enough space for effective iron sights IMO.

The A3 had plenty space for iron sights. The M1 does not. But that aside, they never really intended for it to have iron sights from the start and the backups on the original were more of an afterthought by the looks of it.

 

[Member 3687]

I have had little time with bull pups but have shot the AUG, PS90 and the Tavor and do own a Walther G22 rifle (or should I say my wife does) I like the concept and the fact you can run a longer barrel in a smaller package.

The reason I do not own any is the cost of the firearm and spare parts. For the price of most I can buy a good AR pistol and a rifle and have the pistol SBR'ed and still have money to spare. (I said good not great AR's)

As mentioned before with a pistol I do not have to deal with the SBR laws and I can carry loaded vs. a rifle.

So even though they are cool and have some advantages with barrel length and I have no problem spending the money if I feel I get my money's worth the added cost of a bull pup is not worth it to me.

When they get down to below 9 hundred then we will talk but until then I will keep my AR pistols.

 

[The Heretic]

All good points on the pistol - the problem with an AR pistol is that the 5.56x45 cartridge loses way too much velocity from a short barrel, and the cartridge is dependent on velocity to be effective. Now .300 BLK or 7.62x39 or something similar, those would work in a shorter barrel.

The expense and the parts are an issue too.

That said, I do like and prefer bullpups and I am willing to deal with the shortcomings to get the advantages. There is no law - yet - that says I can't have both a bullpup and an AR pistol.

 

[clearconscience]

I'm sorry but I can't really listen to BS about loss of ballistics in an AR pistol/SBR either way your not shooting it 300+ yards it's a CQs battle rifles not a long range hunter.

The ballistics out to 100 yards should be all your concerned with and even out to 200 yds would be enough to kill a person.

You telling me a 9mm pistol/SBR is better?

It's no different than magnum junkies talking about non-magnums being under powered for big game, elk, etc only 100s if not thousands are harvested every year with .308 and the like.

Or .22s aren't a good self defense round, but people are killed with them every year.

Personally it's just a dumb knock based off from over thinking.

I wouldn't want to be shot at with a .223 out of a 2" barrel at 600 yards.

 

[The Heretic]

A gunfight is not black and white, of course something is better than nothing, but something more is better than something less.

I said that 5.56 loses much of its effectiveness because most of the projectiles used in 5.56x45 depend on impacting at high velocity to be more effective. Most FMJ ammo (which is what most people seem to be stocking up on) depends on velocity to tumble when it strikes tissue, which is what causes most of the tissue damage. Expanding ammo also depends on velocity to expand.

The .30 caliber cartridges lose less velocity from a shorter barrel and the projectile has more mass so it penetrates to vital organs and expands because it has the energy to do the work.

As for .22 rimfire, if more people get shot by it, then more people are going to die from it - that is simple math. The real question is not how many people die from being shot by .22 rimfire, but rather what percentage of people live after being shot by .22 rimfire, and how many attackers live long enough after being shot by it to be able to carry through their attack?

If someone is attacking me, I care less about whether they eventually die, than I do about whether I can stop them from killing me.

I went to college with a guy who took a shot from a Soviet 12.7 AA gun when flying around in a helo - he hobbled around with a cane, but he was still alive. I went to high school with a guy who was shot by a .22 rimfire and died. I recognize that there is no silver bullet - all weapon systems, including their ammo and shooter (bullet placement), are on a spectrum of effectiveness from less to more effective.

I also recognize that no one can predict what will happen in a gunfight. I might be shooting at an attacker at 5 feet with a little .22 pistol, or I might have to shoot at someone hundreds of yards away.

 

[clearconscience]

I guess it reall depends on the overall expected use.

A .223 in a barrel shorter than 10.5" has limitations, yes. But it's still effective out 50-75yds.
It can be carried in a vehicle fully loaded.
It's small and compact.

But if your wanting accuracy and lethality past 100yards then it's not what you want.

But if your in a gunfight outside of 50-75yrds and you win, you'll still lose in court.

So I'm basically saying the argument is non-existent.

It's an argument for the sake of throwing ballistics numbers and hypothetical gunfights.

But hey that's what the internet is all about right.

 

[The Heretic]

It is all about context. Each has their pros and cons, each person has their own priorities.

As you and others have mentioned, legally the "pistol" configuration has its advantages - although I think that if you get into a gunfight the issue of carrying a loaded weapon illegally in a car will be a side issue - one that can be used against you, but not the primary issue. I would bet the appearance of the weapon itself would be as much an issue with a jury as the issue of illegally carrying a loaded rifle.

Also, since we are talking hypothetical gunfights, I would not think that in a gunfight short of a SHTF situation, I would be be needing an AR pistol, much less carrying one loaded. As it is, I struggle to find a secure spot in my vehicle to carry a conventional pistol (such as a Glock) much less an AR pistol, in a manner where I can access it quickly should I need it.

SHTF is the scenario where I think I would need something like an AR pistol, and then only carried on my person, and only until I got home. For at least a short time law enforcement might be concerned about such issues, later maybe not so much.

I think I mentioned I would want an AR pistol - considering getting an 80% lower and making one for the very reasons that you and others prefer them - but I prefer a bullpup, and if I felt I needed to carry one around in my vehicle while rule of law was still in effect, I would just carry it unloaded - putting a loaded mag into a rifle only takes a few seconds.