SB 941 has a "good" gun-show loophole?

[CHLChris]

@Oregon Quartermaster posted this in another thread:

If you meet at the gun show this weekend, no FFL is required by law (SB941 Section 3). You can make the phone call yourself.

I went and checked it:

SECTION 3. ORS 166.436 is amended to read:
166.436. (1) The Department of State Police shall make the telephone number established under
ORS 166.412 (5) available for requests for criminal background checks under this section from
persons [other than] who are not gun dealers and who are transferring firearms at gun shows
[for criminal background checks under this section].
(2) Prior to transferring a firearm at a gun show, a transferor [other than] who is not a gun
dealer may request by telephone that the department conduct a criminal background check on the
recipient and shall provide the following information to the department:

And since there is no way to know WHERE someone is actually calling from, it seems to me that, during the hours of a gun show anywhere in Oregon, any Oregonian anywhere can call into the OSP and run their own background check. It would cost $10, presumably, but would save the $25+ of running a BGC at a pawn shop. They would just say they are at the xyz gun show and want to run a BGC. I'm guessing they take your CC# and go to town.

Anybody try this? I think it is genius for a cheapskate like me. How many gun shows a year are there around the state that would comply with this? Have to be over a dozen! Just time a parking lot meet for one of these windows and you're golden.

Read More

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

DEA, ATF Planned to Monitor Gun Show Attendees with License Plate Recognition System UPDATED - The Truth About Guns

 

[CHLChris]

Even better, say you're at the show, but NOT be at the show.

 

[U8395279]

DEA, ATF Planned to Monitor Gun Show Attendees with License Plate Recognition System UPDATED - The Truth About Guns

I think that you missed the point that Chris was trying to make.

He is saying just tell them that you are at a gun show.

.

 

[CHLChris]

This is just a theoretical conversation, of course. Nobody would ever suggest telling an untruth to the authorities, especially when they are so fair-minded and just!

 

[The Heretic]

Define a "gun show".

Didn't the lawmakers and/or the ATF make a big stink at one time that a "gun show" was any gathering where a group of people got together to buy and sell guns?

How about scheduling such "gun shows" so that the minimum number of people get together in a parking lot and have a "gun show"?

Sure, there is probably a better way to do that - but is there some law that says that a a few people can't have an ad-hoc "gun show" just for this purpose?

Q: In such transfers do you still have to give the serial number/etc.?

 

[Quartermaster]

Some "dealer" today at the show tried to say private party sales at the gun show are considered FFL transfers because there's more than X number of guns for sale, but couldn't cite any law to support that. He also said if you have individual registered NFA devices, and also a trust, the devices are "covered" under your trust. Which means nothing, and doesn't mean you can hand devices over to a trustee. He also didn't know who is authorized to ask to see your NFA stamps without a warrant. Needless to say I didn't spend a lot of time at his table.

 

[The Heretic]

ORS 166.432 - Definitions for ORS 166.412 and 166.433 to 166.441 - 2015 Oregon Revised Statutes

b)Gun show means an event at which more than 25 firearms are on site and available for transfer. [2001 c.1 §3; 2015 c.50 §6]

ORS 166.438 - Transfer of firearms at gun shows - 2015 Oregon Revised Statutes

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

b)Gun show means an event at which more than 25 firearms are on site and available for transfer. [2001 c.1 §3; 2015 c.50 §6]

That would cover most members houses.

 

[The Heretic]

Some "dealer" today at the show tried to say private party sales at the gun show are considered FFL transfers because there's more than X number of guns for sale, but couldn't cite any law to support that.

A transferor who is not a gun dealer may not transfer a firearm at a gun show unless the transferor:

(a)(A) Requests a criminal background check under ORS 166.436 (Department of State Police criminal background checks for gun show firearm transfers) prior to completing the transfer;

(B)Receives a unique approval number from the Department of State Police indicating that the recipient is qualified to complete the transfer; and

(C)Has the recipient complete the form described in ORS 166.441 (Form for transfer of firearm at gun show); or

(b)Completes the transfer through a gun dealer.

ORS 166.438 - Transfer of firearms at gun shows - 2015 Oregon Revised Statutes

 

[Quartermaster]

@The Heretic Option C is how you sell privately at a gun show along with making the background phone call. It is still a "private party" sale because it never goes into an FFL dealer's bound book.

None of what you said makes a private party sale an FFL transfer, nor does the gun show become one big FFL like the table owner claimed.

 

[The Heretic]

That would cover most members houses.

I think the key there is "available for transfer"

I am guessing that if this was tested in court, the transferor and transferee would have to be able to truthfully testify that the transferor(s) had 25+ firearms visible and available for sale.

At which point, the ATF might decide they want to get involved and determine whether the transferor was in the business of selling firearms without an FFL.

There would be some cases where this applies.

Private clubs - such as gun clubs, or an NWFA event, holding a private gun show.

An estate sale where there were more than 25 firearms.

A sale where a person decided they truthfully wanted to offer that many guns for sale.

Personally, I don't want one person, much less a number of people coming to my house when I want to sell a gun.

I could see a small group of people having an ad-hoc gun show, outside of an incorporated municipal area, having a "gun show". But I have not checked state or county statutes regarding putting on a gun show - I would be surprised if there wasn't some statute to the effect of getting a permit or something like that, in PDX or Multnomah county, probably other counties and cities too.

 

[The Heretic]

@The Heretic Option C is how you sell privately at a gun show along with making the background phone call. It is still a "private party" sale because it never goes into an FFL dealer's bound book.

None of what you said makes a private party sale an FFL transfer, nor does the gun show become one big FFL like the table owner claimed.

Agreed - I was just quoting the law to make that clear and why I put in the emphasis on the two words

 

[The Heretic]

Also, you have to inform the OSP of street address where the transfer is taking place. So you can't say you are at a gun show unless you are actually at a gun show.

So I don't think this is a very viable approach to saving money.

Personally, I would rather spend the $25 at an FFL than spend $25,000 later defending myself in court because of some sting conducted on a questionable transfer scenario. Or worse, having the sting done by some news media who doesn't care what the law is, but does know how to make things look bad for gun owners.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

I think the key there is "available for transfer"

Interesting trades considered

 

[Quartermaster]

Also, you have to inform the OSP of street address where the transfer is taking place. So you can't say you are at a gun show unless you are actually at a gun show.

So I don't think this is a very viable approach to saving money.

Personally, I would rather spend the $25 at an FFL than spend $25,000 later defending myself in court because of some sting conducted on a questionable transfer scenario. Or worse, having the sting done by some news media who doesn't care what the law is, but does know how to make things look bad for gun owners.

Agreed. I would absolutely never try to transfer a gun using the gun show rules without PHYSICALLY being in the building.

 

[CHLChris]

This is why it was just a question, @Oregon Quartermaster. For what it's worth, you didn't suggest the idea of being off-premises, I did. You suggested meeting at the show for this purpose. Of course, you wouldn't need to pay the entrance fee and be inside the building to be at the show.

Maybe it's not the best idea as I proposed it, but I think 1/4Master has a smokin' idea...to meet at a gun show, call in the transfer yourself, and save the $15-50 on an FFL.