SB 941 and the C&R in Oregon

[RW-Ore]

bolus, are you not considered a FFL 3 or something like that. To me that would be a FFL selling to another FFL. Now make a fool out of me .

 

[etrain16]

bolus, are you not considered a FFL 3 or something like that. To me that would be a FFL selling to another FFL. Now make a fool out of me .

The issue comes in the definitions. They use the term "firearm dealer". I'm an 03 FFL holder myself, but that doesn't make me a dealer. Dealers are exempt from 941, private parties, even 03 FFL holders, are subject to it.

The question in my mind is that if I make a purchase from an 01 FFL dealer of a C&R item using my 03 FFL license, is whether 941 actually applies. The law says private party sales/transfers. The example I gave does not fit that definition, so it seems to me that that type of sale should be allowed without the extra cost/hassle of using an 01 FFL to make the actual transfer.

 

[bolus]

Kevin's opinion in his 941 video (about half way through) is that background checks are needed for C&R and I did not see the attorney with them disagree

still no word back from OSP.

Has anyone else called? I think if more of us bug them we can get a reply

503-378-3070

 

[Bigbaddude]

I call the OSP (503)378-3070 they didn't know any thing so I called the Portland ATF (503)331-7830 at 1354 and talk to a real jerk but he said if you have a C&R license nothing has change and he wanted to know why I thought thing where changing. I told I just was checking before I buy a old Mauser next week from my co worker and he still said I was good to go with my C&R. I guess I should have got his name but I wanted off the phone with that a$$

 

[bolus]

ATF said the same thing to me. But they dont manage any state laws at all. if OSP does not know, ATF is really not going to know since they dont deal with state laws anyway.

 

[bolus]

I think I've put enough effort in to say Im giving up on this issue.

to summarize, ATF does not deal with state laws at all, so they will not give any advice on 941. Attorney general and state reps dont respond to questions or refuse to answer

Finally got a call back from OSP today. You can only sign up for FICS with a 01 FFL, you cant do a background check on yourself anyway. So they would not let me get a FICS account with an 03 FFL.

OSP says anything related to the C&R FFL has to go through the ATF - thus a complete circle. The manager says he does not know much about the C&R anyway.

2 attorneys I've talked to say you need background checks with the C&R FFL, though one said "you would probably win" if I got arrested.

I asked one to to pursue a declaratory judgement (getting an opinion from a judge without having to get arrested first) and they did not recommend trying.
http://www.oregonlaws.org/glossary/definition/declaratory_judgment
I did not push it since if the judge ruled against us, it would really make things worse.

There really isnt the benefit of the C&R FFL to risk it in my opinion. Im sure most people are still going to use it under the radar or just not even know enough about 941 to care. But I wont risk it.

I'll probably keep the license for the discounts but not renew when it is due.

my reps are not responding to me about getting an amendment next year. So this might be something you guys work on with your reps.

 

[etrain16]

I think I've put enough effort in to say Im giving up on this issue.

to summarize, ATF does not deal with state laws at all, so they will not give any advice on 941. Attorney general and state reps dont respond to questions or refuse to answer

Finally got a call back from OSP today. You can only sign up for FICS with a 01 FFL, you cant do a background check on yourself anyway. So they would not let me get a FICS account with an 03 FFL.

OSP says anything related to the C&R FFL has to go through the ATF - thus a complete circle. The manager says he does not know much about the C&R anyway.

2 attorneys I've talked to say you need background checks with the C&R FFL, though one said "you would probably win" if I got arrested.

I asked one to to pursue a declaratory judgement (getting an opinion from a judge without having to get arrested first) and they did not recommend trying.
http://www.oregonlaws.org/glossary/definition/declaratory_judgment
I did not push it since if the judge ruled against us, it would really make things worse.

There really isnt the benefit of the C&R FFL to risk it in my opinion. Im sure most people are still going to use it under the radar or just not even know enough about 941 to care. But I wont risk it.

I'll probably keep the license for the discounts but not renew when it is due.

my reps are not responding to me about getting an amendment next year. So this might be something you guys work on with your reps.

What a joke. These people pass laws and have no clue what they're talking about. The people in charge of enforcement of the law have no idea what they're talking about. And yet, if we make a mistake and exercise our rights under this license, we pay for it (likely). What a load of carp.

Thanks for doing so much research and sharing it here Bolus. I don't know that there would be anything more you could do to clarify this. I swear, politicians really don't have the qualifications to write laws. What a mess.

 

[DuneHopper]

What a joke. These people pass laws and have no clue what they're talking about. The people in charge of enforcement of the law have no idea what they're talking about. And yet, if we make a mistake and exercise our rights under this license, we pay for it (likely). What a load of carp.

Thanks for doing so much research and sharing it here Bolus. I don't know that there would be anything more you could do to clarify this. I swear, politicians really don't have the qualifications to write laws. What a mess.

Its like that with most laws they pass, however this is particularly volatile because they are stumbling over our Constitutional rights with their head up their asses and many are oblivious that their heads are now lodged permanently up there.

 

[etrain16]

Its like that with most laws they pass, however this is particularly volatile because they are stumbling over our Constitutional rights with their head up their asses and many are oblivious that their heads are now lodged permanently up there.

It's too bad we don't have a deep-pocketed pro-2A benefactor like the anti's have in Bloomie, someone that could help fund some serious legal challenges and put these losers in their place.

 

[bolus]

I spoke with an Oregon ATF officer today. Finally able to speak with someone who was willing to talk. He says that Im not the only one calling about the C&R. He says that since it is a state law it needs to be clarified by the attorney general and OSP.

The ATF has also inquired to them about the C&R and NFA issues and a few other things that were not clarified in the law. Because they dont know either.

His recommendation was to play is safe and not use the C&R FFL until this clarification comes back from the attorney general. At least we know that the ATF asked them so they cant just ignore them like they ignore me.

I'd say keep on bugging you reps and the OSP to clarify this.

 

[bolus]

bored and called OSP again. "so you are a dealer?" *smacks my head on the desk*

Come on guys. You have to have someone at the firearms division in the Oregon State Police department that has heard of an 03 FFL, especially after I've called like 20 times.

I got to leave a message with the director "who will certainly call you back this week" Same guy I've left 3 messages with who has not called me back yet.

I also left a message with the attorney general. "Hey, ATF contacted you guys to clarify this, have you done it yet?" Just a response that they would get back to me.

 

[DuneHopper]

bored and called OSP again. "so you are a dealer?" *smacks my head on the desk*

Come on guys. You have to have someone at the firearms division in the Oregon State Police department that has heard of an 03 FFL, especially after I've called like 20 times.

I got to leave a message with the director "who will certainly call you back this week" Same guy I've left 3 messages with who has not called me back yet.

I also left a message with the attorney general. "Hey, ATF contacted you guys to clarify this, have you done it yet?" Just a response that they would get back to me.

This is a great example of governmental run around.
Make sense a fool ( prozanski ) helped pass this law maybe only he can understand it ? I think it was written in Communism ???

 

[ocarolan]

Just an idea, Oregonian could probably make a good article out of this. Eg "Attorney General refuses to clarify new law; leaves collectors in limbo"

You can suggest stories here:
http://www.oregonianmediagroup.com/contact/contact-news-team/

Currently OSP/AG are probably just hoping the 03 licensees will stop renewing and save them the trouble of doing their job. Likely continue unless they receive media or congressional attention.

Also try East Oregonian and Blue Mountain Eagle:
http://www.eastoregonian.com/eo/submit-news-photo

 

[DuneHopper]

You could also write Dave Workman he might look at an article ?

 

[bolus]

Just an idea, Oregonian could probably make a good article out of this. Eg "Attorney General refuses to clarify new law; leaves collectors in limbo"

You can suggest stories here:
http://www.oregonianmediagroup.com/contact/contact-news-team/

Currently OSP/AG are probably just hoping the 03 licensees will stop renewing and save them the trouble of doing their job. Likely continue unless they receive media or congressional attention.

Also try East Oregonian and Blue Mountain Eagle:
http://www.eastoregonian.com/eo/submit-news-photo

thanks, but I dont trust the media. The Oregonian didnt really put any effort into reporting on our recall when they published their articles on us and got a bunch of stuff wrong. Even after contacting the author the only suggestion was to make a comment in the comment section. so I dont have enough trust to use them.

I actually dont expect to ever use my C&R again. I'm just hoping to annoy the hell out of these guys by calling over and over and over.

 

[RW-Ore]

Keep it up Bolus, make them do their jobs. Even if they don't want too.

 

[Oathkeeper1775]

This is what happens when "Groupthink" produces anything!

If they took he time to listen to people; bring them in to discuss the problems this unconstitutional law would create, a remedy for this issue would be in writting.

$1,000.00 question; are there any lawsuits being put together to turn this law around? We may not have a fringe-bloomie, but we may be able to put our money together....

 

[etrain16]

This is what happens when "Groupthink" produces anything!

If they took he time to listen to people; bring them in to discuss the problems this unconstitutional law would create, a remedy for this issue would be in writting.

$1,000.00 question; are there any lawsuits being put together to turn this law around? We may not have a fringe-bloomie, but we may be able to put our money together....

I'm sure Kevin at OFF is looking into options, but I don't know if a lawsuit would really do anything, at least at this point. We already know that SCOTUS has upheld that BGC's don't violate the 2nd, so there really is little hope to go that route. The question in my mind would have to be whether or not the new law has created any kind of hardship or presented difficulties in people being able to freely exercise their 2A rights.

So, how do you prove hardship? And, who defines 'hardship'? That's a pretty grey term because what one person (or lawyer) defines as hardship will most certainly be different than how the opposing lawyer defines it.

I don't know that putting money into a likely to fail court case would be a good use of resources. Rather, I think our best bet is to talk to every single gun owner in the state that we can (each of us) and make absolutely certain they vote pro-gun candidates from hear on out. Then maybe, just maybe, if we can overturn the majority, we could get SB941 either substantially re-written or repealed.

Our only other option might be a ballot measure to overturn it, but that would take considerable resources in money and time, and we have seen how friendly the damn secretary of state's office (as well as other political resources) are toward such an effort. Don't expect any help from the Republican party, signature gathering firms or the media. And if you can't overcome those hurdles, you'll never get it to the people for a vote in the first place.

We're pretty hosed at this point. Our best bet is to make sure we take their majority away, and then never, ever, ever, ever, give it back. That will be hard to do so long as I keep hearing about pro-gun folks that either can't be bothered to vote, or are willing to continue to vote in anti-gun candidates.

 

[DuneHopper]

I hate to be the Monday morning quarter back guy. But in 2013 Prozanski tried 1551 and failed not by much. The 1551 was actually in some cases worse then SB941 as immediate family transfers were very limited and other issues like borrowing etc were excluded. Bill 1551 should have been a wake up call, instead many celebrated that it didnt pass. ( Mistake ). Then the Dems got a majority and still very few saw the writing on the wall. There would be no real efforts until February 2015 to combat SB941 and even then it was slow sluggish start. The problem is what we have done no longer works, we can not play the conservative game like we have it ends in the same results.

I think if we were in a civil war would we always fight fair with the opposition ? In the middle east rules of engagement often prevented action, and even put troops in harms way. That never stops the enemy from doing what is needed. That is where I am in my head with SB941. There should not be rallies in Salem, there should be "protests" in front of these Anti-Senators homes, where the go to the park, or socialize.
I am not saying break laws, but we really need to grow a pair and think if this was reversed how would the Antis fight? Would they fight fair, no way.

Some may say we must stay on the high road, I would say when do we draw the line, I have zero respect for Prozasnki, just like I have zero for Child Molesters, Rapist and those who commit person on person crimes. I would not treat them on the high road and I we should be giving Prosanski and his minions the respect of the high road. Yes the its been said BGC do not violate our seconds rights, I say that BGC are in a sense treasonous, I would think allot of Prozanskis acts bordered on it, it sure crossed conduct and ethics.

I am just tired of getting kicked in the teeth, and I am piss off that half I would want to say I cant online or a forum. I guess I am thinking when is a enough , enough ?

 

[bolus]

yay for Betsy Johnson for actually answering an email. She is going to ask the Legislative Counsel about the C&R and 941. I had a patient recently who is a retired state legislator who is going to ask some of his old contacts to look into this as well

- OSP is 0/12 for calling me back. They are about 50% for even knowing what a C&R is when I call.
- Attorney General is 0/10 for replies. The one staffer who did reply at the office 2 months ago was fired without getting back to me so Im not counting that. I told madam attorney general that I will be donating to her opposition since she is running for election next year. (not re-election, since she never was elected).
- my senator Hayward is not replying to my questions
- my rep Helm has never responded to anything I've ever asked.
- Second ATF agent in Oregon said not to use the C&R

/incoming sarcasm
I just so proud of my state government.