SB 941 and the C&R in Oregon

[bolus]

What a load of carp

Yes my friend, a load of carp. Here is riley pushing his load of carp

 

[etrain16]

That's great

I knew something stunk...

 

[jefe]

I contacted the ATF for an official response and their response was to contact the Attorney general.

The attorney Generals response was
"Unfortunately, the Oregon Department of Justice (DOJ) is not the proper agency to address your concerns. Neither the Attorney General nor the Oregon Department of Justice have jurisdiction over firearm transfers in Oregon, nor can we provide an interpretation of the law to individual citizens. ORS 180.060. I would suggest redirecting your inquiry to the Oregon State Police. "

I called the State Police and they did not know, though a nice guy names Jeff is going to look into it and call me back. I asked for how to get an official response one way or the other so we know for sure.

Im waiting on that reply

what sort of official response are you looking for? did you contact the main ATF headquarters? i've had good information and experiences with calling both the portland and seattle field offices. did you speak with a field investigator, or a receptionist?

 

[bolus]

what sort of official response are you looking for? did you contact the main ATF headquarters? i've had good information and experiences with calling both the portland and seattle field offices. did you speak with a field investigator, or a receptionist?

I contacted the "Firearms Industry Program Branch" at the ATF (FIPB Regulatory Email Inquiries) to see who I needed to contact within the ATF to get an official response. The response was :

"ATF does not have regulatory oversight on the laws for the State of Oregon. The Curios and Relics FFL has not changed federally, meaning that the license is good in all 50 States. You would need to contact your State's Attorney General Office to inquire about the laws related to the transfer of firearms within the State. "

So I did not try to contact anyone else in the ATF.

I want someone to put it in writing who has an official capacity at the state or federal level to say exactly whether I can order a C&R gun after august. Yes or No is what Im looking for. Not try it and see if I get arrested approach

 

[Jim Colvill]

I want someone to put it in writing who has an official capacity at the state or federal level to say exactly whether I can order a C&R gun after august. Yes or No is what Im looking for. Not try it and see if I get arrested approach

Yay or Nay would be nice but I think that the question really won't be answered until there is a legal challenge to it. It really galls me that no one took our questions and suggestions seriously when this thing was going through the process.

 

[ocarolan]

I want someone to put it in writing who has an official capacity at the state or federal level to say exactly whether I can order a C&R gun after august. Yes or No is what Im looking for. Not try it and see if I get arrested approach

Did you read SB 941? Not sure if this helps, but purchasing directly from a dealer using the C&R does not qualify as a transfer.

(a) "Transfer" means the delivery of a firearm from a transferor to a transferee, including, but not limited to, the sale, gift, loan or lease of the firearm.
[...]
(b) "Transferee" means a person who is not a gun dealer or licensed as a manufacturer or importer under 18 U.S.C. 923 and who intends to receive a firearm from a transferor.
(c) "Transferor" means a person who is not a gun dealer or licensed as a manufacturer or importer under 18 U.S.C. 923 and who intends to deliver a firearm to a transferee.

Overall SB941 only applies to non-dealer to non-dealer transfers. I'm not a collector but presumably your license may still be useful for buying or selling directly to dealer FFLs, even within the state.

 

[bolus]

Did you read SB 941? Not sure if this helps, but purchasing directly from a dealer using the C&R does not qualify as a transfer.

(a) "Transfer" means the delivery of a firearm from a transferor to a transferee, including, but not limited to, the sale, gift, loan or lease of the firearm.
[...]
(b) "Transferee" means a person who is not a gun dealer or licensed as a manufacturer or importer under 18 U.S.C. 923 and who intends to receive a firearm from a transferor.
(c) "Transferor" means a person who is not a gun dealer or licensed as a manufacturer or importer under 18 U.S.C. 923 and who intends to deliver a firearm to a transferee.

Overall SB941 only applies to non-dealer to non-dealer transfers. I'm not a collector but presumably your license may still be useful for buying or selling directly to dealer FFLs, even within the state.

That would make sense except that Senator Prozanski who wrote the bill (or had it written for him) specifically told me it was his intention with the bill that C&R holders had to do background checks on every purchase. I also asked him and several other legislators to add specific language to the bill so it would be clarified and they didnt. I also had my legislator lie to me saying she could not introduce an amendment to clarify it when there was still plenty of time in the session to do it. Absolutely none of them through multiple communications said anything about the C&R being exempt even before the bill was introduced.

So, I have no desire to retain a lawyer or to be the first to temp an arrest to buy a 100 year old broken gun just to have the law clarified for me in court. Its also clear that my representatives purposefully lie to me so Im assuming any intentions they had with his bill are to punish any gun owner regardless of if they are decent people or not

I want one of these groups I pay through taxes to step up and put it in writing one way or another so I can keep a copy with me and my lawyer. Perhaps still would not matter in court. But if they are going to get paid to F with me, they can at least have some integrity to step up and tell me to my face. There has to be at least one person left on this planet to take some personal responsibility.

 

[ocarolan]

That would make sense except that Senator Prozanski who wrote the bill (or had it written for him) specifically told me it was his intention with the bill that C&R holders had to do background checks on every purchase. I also asked him and several other legislators to add specific language to the bill so it would be clarified and they didnt. I also had my legislator lie to me saying she could not introduce an amendment to clarify it when there was still plenty of time in the session to do it.

Understood. By accident or design, the law (as written) seems fairly clear already though. It explicitly does not treat with transactions to dealers/importers. Though apparently collector to collector transfers would be covered.

Looking at the law, it would not be easy to add such an amendment, since they would need to redefine "transfer" to cover dealers without affecting dealer transfers with non-licensees. Agree no one wants to be a test case though.

 

[Modeler]

I'll keep buying out of state as long as the seller recognizes my FFL. I don't believe this bill can restrict interstate trade between Federal licensees, unless Floyd "a bad guy shot my sister" Prozanski sees something in what he wrote that the rest of us don't. Supreme Court anyone?

I'm not the kind of person to state on a public forum how I might try to circumvent a law, but I like this idea.

 

[bolus]

I put another call into OSP today and they still dont know. I did ask if I can have a C&R gun transferred to me and then call OSP to run my own background check. They are going to noodle on that question too. (Obviously I would not do this but Im curious if it would work)

 

[etrain16]

I put another call into OSP today and they still dont know. I did ask if I can have a C&R gun transferred to me and then call OSP to run my own background check. They are going to noodle on that question too. (Obviously I would not do this but Im curious if it would work)

Wow, they don't have much time left to get this worked out. I would have thought after having almost 90 days to work things out they would be ready to go.

I'm shocked Truly shocked...

It's almost like the folks that wrote this law had no clue what they were doing, how to enforce it, or what the consequences would be. How could this have happened?!

Morons

 

[RW-Ore]

We are doing what we can in Lane county to get this MORON recalled.

 

[66PonyCar]

Did you read SB 941? Not sure if this helps, but purchasing directly from a dealer using the C&R does not qualify as a transfer.

(a) "Transfer" means the delivery of a firearm from a transferor to a transferee, including, but not limited to, the sale, gift, loan or lease of the firearm.
[...]
(b) "Transferee" means a person who is not a gun dealer or licensed as a manufacturer or importer under 18 U.S.C. 923 and who intends to receive a firearm from a transferor.
(c) "Transferor" means a person who is not a gun dealer or licensed as a manufacturer or importer under 18 U.S.C. 923 and who intends to deliver a firearm to a transferee.

Overall SB941 only applies to non-dealer to non-dealer transfers. I'm not a collector but presumably your license may still be useful for buying or selling directly to dealer FFLs, even within the state.

My interpretation is the same. This applies to transfers from a non dealer to another non dealer. The problem is going to be that out of state FFL's are probably not going to take a chance and ship to a C & R holder in Oregon. An in state FFL may also try to avoid any legal trouble and just do a background check on you even if you have a C & R.

I went to the Oregon Department of Justice webpage to see if they had any information. What stood out is the following:

Get Legal Advice


Article Content



Oregon law prohibits the Attorney General and employees of the Department of Justice from providing legal advice to private individuals (ORS 180.060).



I realize they cannot provide legal advice but they should be able to provide an interpretation of the statute without someone having to possibly break the law to test it. I think the NRA or another gun rights organization should seek an interpretation from ODOJ.

 

[66PonyCar]

Okay so I found additional information regarding attorney general opinions:

The Attorney General provides written opinions upon any question of law in which any government entity within the state may have an interest when requested by the governor, any state agency official or any member of the legislature, but is prohibited by law from rendering opinions or giving legal advice to any other persons or agencies.

So perhaps we can get one of our legislators to request an opinion.

 

[etrain16]

My interpretation is the same. This applies to transfers from a non dealer to another non dealer. The problem is going to be that out of state FFL's are probably not going to take a chance and ship to a C & R holder in Oregon. An in state FFL may also try to avoid any legal trouble and just do a background check on you even if you have a C & R.

I went to the Oregon Department of Justice webpage to see if they had any information. What stood out is the following:

Get Legal Advice


Article Content



Oregon law prohibits the Attorney General and employees of the Department of Justice from providing legal advice to private individuals (ORS 180.060).



I realize they cannot provide legal advice but they should be able to provide an interpretation of the statute without someone having to possibly break the law to test it. I think the NRA or another gun rights organization should seek an interpretation from ODOJ.

If they can provide no interpretation, then how can they possibly enforce the law? Seems to me if they don't understand it, they certainly can't arrest someone on a charge they don't understand themselves.

 

[ocarolan]

Okay so I found additional information regarding attorney general opinions:

The Attorney General provides written opinions upon any question of law in which any government entity within the state may have an interest when requested by the governor, any state agency official or any member of the legislature, but is prohibited by law from rendering opinions or giving legal advice to any other persons or agencies.

So perhaps we can get one of our legislators to request an opinion.

Kevin (OFF) has done that in the past for similar laws. He's been AWOL on any interpretations of SB 941 so far though. Only struck out parts of the FAQ.

Honestly SB 941 is fairly tough to interpret. More questions:

1. It looks like F2F transfers are still possible at a 'gun show' provided the free background check is done. The only definition of 'gun show' is based on the number of firearms offered. Would (say) two guys and 25 guns in a garage qualify? Also does the sale need to be initiated at the gun show?

2. SB 941 exempts any "transfer" in which either party is a dealer. So dealers can still sell personal firearms without a BGC. Is that right?

https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/2015R1/Downloads/MeasureDocument/SB941/Introduced

 

[bolus]

OSP's fact sheet on 941. Even if they can provide legal advice they could update this fact sheet for C&R

http://www.oregon.gov/osp/docs/SB941_Information_Sheet.pdf

You can call OSP for a background check at a gun show for a private sale.

"A private party transferring a firearm at a gun show must complete a background check through OSP or a firearm dealer prior to the transfer. (NOTE: This is existing statute, however is highlighted to show the private party has options, in these instances.)"

 

[etrain16]

OSP's fact sheet on 941. Even if they can provide legal advice they could update this fact sheet for C&R

http://www.oregon.gov/osp/docs/SB941_Information_Sheet.pdf

You can call OSP for a background check at a gun show for a private sale.

"A private party transferring a firearm at a gun show must complete a background check through OSP or a firearm dealer prior to the transfer. (NOTE: This is existing statute, however is highlighted to show the private party has options, in these instances.)"

I don't know, according to their fact sheet, the law only applies to private party transfers. I don't see how that could apply to a C&R sale if you're buying from a dealer. That would not meet the definition of a private party sale.

"Private-party firearm transfers must be conducted through a licensed firearm dealer..."

Now, C&R holder to C&R holder where neither is a dealer, then I could see the issue. But it would seem to me (and I'm still waiting for further clarification), that the C&R purchase from a dealer should be exempt. That would be at least some good news out of all this garbage.

 

[bolus]

see, this is why that Prozanski bubblegum is a big fat bubblegummy stinking bubblegum. I knew that we'd be in this position today. trying to figure out, as good honest law abiding citizens, if we would be breaking to law. that's why I had been hammering them with questions even before they submitted the bill.

I could just say F it and order what I wanted and Im sure it would get delivered to my house. But then I have to record the firearm in my book. So if someone decides to be a bubblegum about it, I've recorded the evidence in my bound book.

BUBBLEGUMS! This country needs a giant flush down the toilet.

 

[etrain16]

see, this is why that Prozanski bubblegum is a big fat bubblegummy stinking bubblegum. I knew that we'd be in this position today. trying to figure out, as good honest law abiding citizens, if we would be breaking to law. that's why I had been hammering them with questions even before they submitted the bill.

I could just say F it and order what I wanted and Im sure it would get delivered to my house. But then I have to record the firearm in my book. So if someone decides to be a bubblegum about it, I've recorded the evidence in my bound book.

BUBBLEGUMS! This country needs a giant flush down the toilet.

You said it!