Washington SB 5038 passed and signed into law

[sobo]

ETA: I just found another thread on this law (missed it when I searched cuz it didn't have "SB 5038" in the thread title).
Can a mod (@Andy54Hawken, @Hueco, @orygun, @Kruel J, @CountryGent, @Camelfilter, @No_Regerts, etc.) please merge this thread into that one, or vice versa? Sorry I didn't find the other one before posting this one. TIA


So, SB 5038, the ludicrous law that makes it a crime to exercise the 2A in 1A spaces, was just signed into law this week... here's the law's basic pitch:

SB 5038 makes it a crime to openly carry, on the person or in a vehicle, a firearm or other "weapon" if you are at or within 250 feet of a "permitted demonstration" in a public place. Even if you leave your firearm locked in the trunk of your car, it is considered "open carry" under this bill and you will be guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

So, here's the hypothetical situation:

You're on your way home from work and you end up surrounded by a BLMtifa "protest" (let's just say that this particular riot has a permit).
Say you forgot to strap on as you left work and your firearm is still locked in your trunk.
As I read this law, I'm guilty of a gross misdemeanor if I get caught up in this "protest" and a cop decides to search my vehicle.
What kind of bullbubblegum is that???

Read More

 

[Hueco]

I don't see that in the bill at all.

The word "knowingly" is tossed around a bunch...in that, you cannot "knowingly" open carry while "knowingly" being within 250 feet of a "permitted" demonstration.

I haven't read it in detail but didn't see anything about concealed carry.

Having your gun on you, even open carry, while driving home and getting stuck in a mob...you'd be protected:
- You weren't knowingly there
- Said mob likely wasn't permitted in the first place

 

[sobo]

I don't know, @Hueco... I wouldn't trust my 2A freedoms to a lefty court's interpretation of this, or any 2A-related law for that matter.

I didn't see anything in it about concealed carry either, but to me, the really frightening part of this law is that if my firearm is in the trunk, even with it locked, that's considered "open carry", and so I'm guilty of a crime. That just seems galactically stupid in my estimation.

And "knowingly" seems pretty vague and subjective to me. Some hotshot, conniving, anti-2A prosecutor could use that vagueness against me. Just sayin'...


As an aside, the hypothetical situation did state that the riot was permitted.

 

[Ducati_Meister]

Loony left idiots slowly chipping away at our 2nd amendment rights as usual. What a screw.

 

[Knobgoblin]

I bet someone in oly gets hassled using this law sometime this summer. Possibly even "made an example of with arrest and prosecution.

 

[Hueco]

I don't know, @Hueco... I wouldn't trust my 2A freedoms to a lefty court's interpretation of this, or any 2A-related law for that matter.

I didn't see anything in it about concealed carry either, but to me, the really frightening part of this law is that if my firearm is in the trunk, even with it locked, that's considered "open carry", and so I'm guilty of a crime. That just seems galactically stupid in my estimation.

And "knowingly" seems pretty vague and subjective to me. Some hotshot, conniving, anti-2A prosecutor could use that vagueness against me. Just sayin'...


As an aside, the hypothetical situation did state that the riot was permitted.

Re: the courts - agree with you there. With all the money we pay legislators, you'd think they could write an airtight bill.

 

[FireArm]

....

 

[sobo]

misdemeanor... and involving a firearm, likely not expungable.

Yeah, that's the worry. Pretty bubblegumtily written law...

 

[arentol72]

So, SB 5038, the ludicrous law that makes it a crime to exercise the 2A in 1A spaces, was just signed into law this week... here's the law's basic pitch:

SB 5038 makes it a crime to openly carry, on the person or in a vehicle, a firearm or other "weapon" if you are at or within 250 feet of a "permitted demonstration" in a public place. Even if you leave your firearm locked in the trunk of your car, it is considered "open carry" under this bill and you will be guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

So, here's the hypothetical situation:

You're on your way home from work and you end up surrounded by a BLMtifa "protest" (let's just say that this particular riot has a permit).
Say you forgot to strap on as you left work and your firearm is still locked in your trunk.
As I read this law, I'm guilty of a gross misdemeanor if I get caught up in this "protest" and a cop decides to search my vehicle.
What kind of bullbubblegum is that???

2(a) is poorly written, because the term "open carry" is not defined anywhere, and a common man understanding of the term is that it means carrying an openly visible firearm on your person. However, the last sentence of 2(a) says that it also includes a firearm "openly carried" not on your person but in a vehicle. That makes ZERO sense. So courts will have to straighten that out I guess. Regardless, it wouldn't apply to a firearm in a vehicle that is concealed in that vehicle. The "Open" part is going to have to be part of it no matter what. So you are safe to carry in your closed trunk, in a safe in the car, fully under the seat, under a blanket in the front seat (some of these with CPL only).

2(a) and 2(b) are entirely separate. Nothing about 2(a) applies to 2(b). So the vehicle part only applies when you are AT a demonstration, not when you are within 250 feet.

Also, 2(b) doesn't make it a crime to be OC within 250 feet of a demonstration. It makes it a crime to not leave the area of the demonstration after a police officer notifies you of it and tells you to leave or relieve yourself of possession of the firearm.

Note that this law creates a whole other problem, because there is almost no legal way to end your possession of a firearm at any time other than on your own private property (because you can't functionally transfer possession to anyone else, even for an hour, such as leaving your firearm in a friends safe at a nearby home before returning to the area). Functionally it means leaving the area, and if you want to come back you have to go all the way home, disarm, and return.

2(e) is also a bit confusing, because if you have a CPL you can conceal carry and be entirely unaffected by this law.... Except that if you WERE OC'ing within 250 feet of a demonstration and an officer asked you to leave then can you switch to concealed carry and carry on with your day? Does the act of concealing remove you from that directive, or is the fact you are under that directive before concealing mean you have to carry through with it? I can see arguments both ways on that. I am certain that police officers will get stupid over it if you just react to such an instruction by trying to conceal, so you will probably have to just leave, which sucks.

So in the case of your example you are 100% fine.

 

[sobo]

Thanks for the research, @arentol72, and welcome to The Board!

 

[oneillj]

This is the response I received back from one of my representatives.

"Thank you for your email sharing your opposition to SB 5038, which would prohibit the open carry of firearms at public demonstrations and the State Capital. I have always sought to uphold the rights of law-abiding gun owners, while also pushing to take important steps toward improving community safety through common sense firearm regulation.



I voted for this legislation as I believe it will increase public safety. The purpose of openly carrying a firearm at a protest is often to intimidate people who are exercising their First Amendment rights, and this only serves to increase the risk of violence, death, and vigilante activity.



I do not believe this bill conflicts with the 2nd Amendment. Just as there can be reasonable restrictions on free speech rights (making threats of violence, yelling fire in a crowd), there can be reasonable restrictions on the right to bear arms. It is already illegal to open carry in courts and jails. This bill is just another reasonable restriction to increase safety.



Thank you again for reaching out to the office. Although we disagree on this particular issue, I hope you will continue to reach out in the future as I value hearing from my constituents."



Sincerely,







Representative Debra Entenman

47th Legislative District

Washington State House of Representatives

(253) 330-5504| [email protected]

 

[Dinglenutz]

She seems to think it's illegal to shout fire in a crowd. What can you expect.

 

[oneillj]

She seems to think it's illegal to shout fire in a crowd. What can you expect.

Not only that, she is assuming that a person only carries a firearm for intimidation and is voting on her personal beliefs not on what is legally binding in not only our state constitution but our federal constitution. It is very clear to me that our representatives and senetors are using our rights as bargaining chips. Unfortunately both sides do it because Republicans have not been super gun friendly either, but after this recent presidential election there has been a full on attack of our constitutionally protected rights.

 

[P7M13]

Re: the courts - agree with you there. With all the money we pay legislators, you'd think they could write an airtight bill.

I think that's exactly what Bloomberg says too.

Yeah, that's the worry. Pretty bubblegumtily written law...

re: legislatures and laws. When i put the ex through law school, I was her study partner on many subjects. The laws you would read from many states were simply asinine. Came to the conclusion, most politicians represent the lower half of the IQ bell curve.
The joke about legislators became a variant of the "those who cannot do, teach", with the legislators being at the level of Walmart greeters.

 

[Dinglenutz]

The laws you would read from many states were simply asinine. Came to the conclusion, most politicians represent the lower half of the IQ bell curve.

My understanding of the way it's done is that laws are not really written by 'lawmakers', they have people who do this and the 'lawmakers' discuss, persuade, promote, and eventually vote.

 

[P7M13]

My understanding of the way it's done is that laws are not really written by 'lawmakers', they have people who do this and the 'lawmakers' discuss, persuade, promote, and eventually vote.

Yes, I've heard that "think tanks" will write bills and submit them to sympathetic legislators. Pork and stupid clauses added, and they are passed into laws.

 

[SonicBlue03]

If you're on your way home from work and you find yourself in the middle of a militant BLMtifa event, I think the only thing you really should be worried about is just how sensitive your car is for airbag deployment, and whether or not the result of you getting out of there to protect your life will buff out or not.

 

[CRBMoA]

I have noticed a trend among my tea-totaling, rule following do good friends.

They are sick of playing Calvin BallTM and are about done with these arbitrary and capricious edicts from our overlords.

They have moved from, "I can't go outside and I need to quarantine my groceries for a week in the garage." to "Leave me alone".

Compliance is eroding, just like we were taught it would when the boy cries wolf for a year and a half.

 

[Lazyfaire]

ETA: I just found another thread on this law (missed it when I searched cuz it didn't have "SB 5038" in the thread title).
Can a mod (@Andy54Hawken, @Hueco, @orygun, @Kruel J, @CountryGent, @Camelfilter, @No_Regerts, etc.) please merge this thread into that one, or vice versa? Sorry I didn't find the other one before posting this one. TIA


So, SB 5038, the ludicrous law that makes it a crime to exercise the 2A in 1A spaces, was just signed into law this week... here's the law's basic pitch:

SB 5038 makes it a crime to openly carry, on the person or in a vehicle, a firearm or other "weapon" if you are at or within 250 feet of a "permitted demonstration" in a public place. Even if you leave your firearm locked in the trunk of your car, it is considered "open carry" under this bill and you will be guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

So, here's the hypothetical situation:

You're on your way home from work and you end up surrounded by a BLMtifa "protest" (let's just say that this particular riot has a permit).
Say you forgot to strap on as you left work and your firearm is still locked in your trunk.
As I read this law, I'm guilty of a gross misdemeanor if I get caught up in this "protest" and a cop decides to search my vehicle.
What kind of bullbubblegum is that???

That's kinda OK because Antifa doesn't apply for permits. They just go out and rage in the streets!

 

[nwslopoke]

If you're on your way home from work and you find yourself in the middle of a militant BLMtifa event, I think the only thing you really should be worried about is just how sensitive your car is for airbag deployment, and whether or not the result of you getting out of there to protect your life will buff out or not.

How many of those are under a permit? They believe they are in control. Why beg for the permission of the system they are tearing down?

Would love to see people needing a permit to riot, I mean protest, outside of their state. Make it a federal case to do so by crossing state's lines. No right is absolute as the potato keeps saying. What? You still get to protest. Just like in prison.