Say you do have to defend your life...

[Redcap]

I don't agree with not talking to the police. I have nothing to hide but if I sense one bit of the police trying to coerce me into anything then that when I would stop all communication.

You don't have to agree with it, but in talking to the police, you are rolling the dice...

 

[python287]

Dial 911

Ask for ambulance/medical help for the wounded/dead (you cannot declare him dead, only a doctor can). That's all. You don't need to make excessive statements about what lead to the person being injured.

Actually anyone can declare somebody dead - Police Officers and firemen do it all the time.

Call 9-1-1 ask for an ambulance ! the person was shot !

 

[Burt Gummer]

I don't agree with not talking to the police. I have nothing to hide but if I sense one bit of the police trying to coerce me into anything then that when I would stop all communication.

Many innocent people with nothing to hide wish they had never talked to the police, ever. Why wouldn't you listen to the logical advice given by a 20-year legal veteran + a cop in that video? Like they said, people love to talk, they can't shut up, and that is their downfall. In this situation the cops are there to find something against you, not to help you.

 

[wm36]

This is a very important issue, could change your life. Don't ask for this kind of advice on the internet. Pay a few bucks, make an appointment with an attorney, ask him your questions.

 

[pchewn]

Actually anyone can declare somebody dead - Police Officers and firemen do it all the time.

OK, it looks like only physicians, people acting under the direction of a physician (Registered Nurse, Physician Assistant), medical examiner, and funeral service practitioner can declare people dead. The point is: the normal lay-person cannot determine death. Therefore, you should call an ambulance.

432.307 Compulsory filing of death certificates; persons required to file. (1) A certificate of death for each death that occurs in this state shall be submitted to the county registrar of the county in which the death occurred or to the Center for Health Statistics, or as otherwise directed by the State Registrar of the Center for Health Statistics, within five days after death or the finding of a dead body and prior to final disposition, and shall be registered if it has been completed and filed in accordance with this section.
(a) If the place of death is unknown, but the dead body is found in this state, the certificate of death shall be completed and filed in accordance with this section. The place where the body is found shall be shown as the place of death. If the date of death is unknown, it shall be determined by approximation. If the date cannot be determined by approximation, the date the dead body is found shall be entered and identified as the date of death.
(b) When death occurs in a moving conveyance:
(A) In the United States and the body is first removed from the conveyance in this state, the death shall be registered in this state and the place where it is first removed shall be considered the place of death.
(B) While in international waters or air space or in a foreign country or its air space and the body is first removed from the conveyance in this state, the death shall be registered in this state but the certificate shall show the actual place of death insofar as can be determined.
(c) In all other cases, the place where death is pronounced shall be considered the place where death occurred.
(2) The funeral service practitioner or person acting as a funeral service practitioner who first assumes custody of the dead body shall submit the certificate of death. The funeral service practitioner or person acting as a funeral service practitioner shall obtain the personal data from the next of kin or the best qualified person or source available and shall obtain the medical certification from the person responsible therefor. The funeral service practitioner or person acting as a funeral service practitioner shall provide the certificate of death containing information as specified by rule to identify the decedent to the certifier within 48 hours after death.
(3) The physician, physician assistant practicing under the supervision of a person licensed to practice medicine under ORS chapter 677 or certified nurse practitioner, in charge of the care of the patient for the illness or condition that resulted in death shall complete, sign and return the medical certification of death to the funeral service practitioner or person acting as a funeral service practitioner within 48 hours after receipt of the certificate of death by the physician, physician assistant or nurse practitioner, except when inquiry is required by ORS chapter 146. In the absence or inability of the physician, physician assistant or nurse practitioner, or with the approval of the physician, the medical certification of death may be completed by an associate physician, the chief medical officer of the institution in which death occurred or the physician who performed an autopsy upon the decedent, provided that the individual has access to the medical history of the case and death is due to natural causes. The person completing the medical certification of death shall attest to its accuracy either by signature or by an approved electronic process.
(4) When inquiry is required by ORS chapter 146, the medical examiner shall determine the cause of death and shall complete and sign the medical certification of death within 48 hours after taking charge of the case.
(5) If the cause of death cannot be determined within the time prescribed, the medical certification of death shall be completed as provided by rule of the state registrar. The attending physician, physician assistant practicing under the supervision of a person licensed to practice medicine under ORS chapter 677, nurse practitioner or medical examiner shall give the funeral service practitioner or person acting as a funeral service practitioner notice of the reason for the delay, and final disposition of the body shall not be made until authorized by the attending physician, physician assistant, nurse practitioner or medical examiner.
(6) Upon receipt of autopsy results or other information that would change the information in the "Cause of Death" section of the certificate of death from that originally reported, the certifier shall immediately file a supplemental report of cause of death with the Center for Health Statistics to amend the certificate.
(7) When a death is presumed to have occurred within this state but the body cannot be located, a certificate of death may be registered by the state registrar only upon receipt from the State Medical Examiner. Such a death certificate shall be marked "Presumptive" and shall show on its face the date of registration.
(8) When a death occurring in this state has not been registered within the time period prescribed by this section, a certificate of death may be filed in accordance with rules of the state registrar. The certificate shall be registered subject to evidentiary requirements as the state registrar by rule shall prescribe to substantiate the alleged facts of death.
(9) A certificate of death registered one year or more after the date of death or the date the dead body was found shall be marked "Delayed" and shall show on its face the date of the delayed registration.
(10) When an applicant does not submit the minimum documentation required by rule of the state registrar for delayed registration or when the state registrar has cause to question the validity or adequacy of the applicant's sworn statement or the documentary evidence and if the deficiencies are not corrected, the state registrar shall not register the delayed certificate of death and shall advise the applicant of the right of appeal under ORS 183.480 to 183.484.
(11) A certificate of death required to be filed under this section shall contain the Social Security number of the decedent whenever the Social Security number is reasonably available from other records concerning the decedent or can be obtained from the person in charge of the final disposition of the decedent. [1963 c.200 §2; 1965 c.221 §26; 1977 c.582 §33; 1983 c.709 §12; 1985 c.207 §5; 1997 c.783 §29; 1999 c.80 §71; 1999 c.724 §1; 2001 c.357 §2; 2003 c.104 §3]

 

[mjbskwim]

you can't call your freaken lawyer when somebody is lying in front of you bleeding by your hand- you call 911.

now i'm 100% opposed to putting yourself at risk for legal considerations- chosing less effective and less "scary" loads/calibers/weapons because you think they'll make you MORE liable, etc. but calling your lawyer before you call for medical assistance just plain stoopid- do you have any idea how that's going to look during the civil trial? they're gonna wipe the floor with you. besides- human life is more important than far-fetched legal theory.

just freaken call 911, then call your lawyer, and if the cops get there before your lawyer does, calmly tell them you were in fear for your life, and that you don't want to say anything else till your lawyer arrives shortly. that's the smartest way to handle it, and any halfway decent cop will respect that.

I will tell you that if there is a chance that the person you just shot,may live,you are in deep doodoo and you did not stop the threat properly.If the attacker is still moving,he is a threat.

Do you know he doesn't have a gun concealed and can shoot you? Do you know how much drugs he has in him(her) and their pain threshold? Do you know that they can't still kill you?
You shoot me and I'm still alive? I'mma probably wanting to shoot you.I would guess that the guy that did something bad enough for you to shoot him,still wants to do bad things to you.

STOP THE THREAT,then worry about calling 911

I personally ain't shooting at anyone to injure them.Causes too much legal problems.Sure say and spin it anyway you want.(oooohhhhh don't say you intend to kill someone on here)

When you are pulling a gun on someone,you had better decide to end a life,or yours might be the one ended.
If you hesitate after pulling the gun,it may be taken from you and used against you. It has happened before.

If you think you can pull a gun and it won't cause lots of problems anyway,think again.

All I am saying is if you shoot to try to not kill,I think you have opened a larger can of worms than stopping the threat entirely.

I've said it before,I'll take my chances with the 12

 

[HollisOR]

I can declare someone dead. Will it have any real or legal meaning. NO!

Rules of defense are simple, fearful of yours or another person's life. Problem is when a person acts prematurely or panics. Shoot firsts then find out.

What harms our community is some of the talk that goes on in threads like this. Spend some time and talk to a lawyer now and know what to do not hearsay or Youtube stuff.

Killing another person is dead serious business not to be taken lightly.

Cops, IMHO, are generally ok. Problem is if a person says something that their buddy told them to say. Their buddy is not a lawyer and knows less about the law than a 5 year old. Most of this is covered in any qualified CHL class. Say little, say the truth. Do not shoot someone because you are scared of zombies/aliens from mars or ?. Lethal force is justifiable under a define set of rules. Know those rules. Don't get them from a forum or your buddies advice.

Lying and trying to cover things up will only make it look like you did something wrong.

Anytime you shoot, it is the use of lethal force. That means a potential to kill. Shooting to wound is a TV Cowboy shoot out fantasy. You are also responsible for errant rounds. Every round fired will hit something.

Best thing to do, is to avoid any shooting unless you know your life or the life of someone else is at stake. Call 911 first, than if possible your lawyer and follow their advise. Very carefully make a notation of who else was around and where, the perps action, If you can render aid, do so. For heaven sakes don't say crap like, I shot him a few more times to be sure he was dead and not just wounded. Then it becomes a possible murder not justifiable manslaughter. (look up excessive force)

Again, even disregard this post, get real legal advice from a real lawyer. Most people only talk to lawyers after the fact.

I carry for the same reason I have air bags in my truck. Just in case. I hope I never have to use them.

 

[mjbskwim]

Render aid to a person that was going to harm or kill you?

Do you really want to be in reach of this person?

Are you a medic? Can you actually help this person or make it worse?

Again,if you just shot me,I'm gunna try to do bad things to you.Now give me some drugs and a little liquor,what do think I might try?

Don't touch the person unless you are willing to give him a second chance to harm you.

 

[olydemon]

I have seen this video before and it is probably a portion of what got me thinking about this issue.



And the BOLD part above is what got me really thinking. Seems like that would look so bad in any trial.

So my follow up question is... How many of you have a lawyer in place, that you have a business relationship with for his type of thing? We (gun owners) talk about "call your lawyer" but if you don't have one in place it doesn't help.

I noticed no one really answered your question. I wonder the same thing. Maybe there should be a sticky started for lawyers who will be good to call in the event of a need. Someone got Saul Goodmans #? (thats sorta sarcasm)

I also think its funny to see all this extra talk about going beyond an initial shoot to "make sure they are dead". I know Ive seen enough bad TV investigative news shows to know that they would be able to figure out what happened no matter your story, and when they go to dig into your history, everything said here is on the record.

 

[The B]

I have seen this video before and it is probably a portion of what got me thinking about this issue.



And the BOLD part above is what got me really thinking. Seems like that would look so bad in any trial.

So my follow up question is... How many of you have a lawyer in place, that you have a business relationship with for his type of thing? We (gun owners) talk about "call your lawyer" but if you don't have one in place it doesn't help.

i was going to answer, then i forgot..

sitting here really thinking about it- to tell you the truth, if the shoot was clean and straight forward, i probably wouldn't even call a lawyer so long as the investigator wasn't razzing me. i'm a pretty perceptive guy, i think i can pick up baiting, in the unlikely event such a thing were to occur. i'd just tell it like it was... there i was, not doing anybody any harm, getting into my car/walking out of the restaurant/finishing up at the ATM/whatever... and some fool tried to jack me. now he's under that tarp over there... can i go home now?

but if there was anything even remotely sketch, or even looked that way- i'd had mutally verbal altercation with the deceased prior to shooting, or, God forbid, i had a mutally PHYSICAL altercation that was escalated to the point that weapons were drawn.. or any number of situations i can't just come up with... then you can bet i'm gonna do as i suggest above: call 911, me on my knees with my hands interlocked behind my head when officers arrive, give a brief statement that i'd been in fear for my life, and tell them that my lawyer will be there presently. if there's ANY gray in the story, that's where people get bubblegumed.

 

[22many]

i was going to answer, then i forgot..

sitting here really thinking about it- to tell you the truth, if the shoot was clean and straight forward, i probably wouldn't even call a lawyer so long as the investigator wasn't razzing me. i'm a pretty perceptive guy, i think i can pick up baiting, in the unlikely event such a thing were to occur. i'd just tell it like it was... there i was, not doing anybody any harm, getting into my car/walking out of the restaurant/finishing up at the ATM/whatever... and some fool tried to jack me. now
he's under that tarp over there... can i go home now?

but if there was anything even remotely sketch, or even looked that way- i'd had mutally verbal altercation with the deceased prior to shooting, or, God forbid, i had a mutally PHYSICAL altercation that was escalated to the point that weapons were drawn.. or any number of situations i can't just come up with... then you can bet i'm gonna do as i suggest
above: call 911, me on my knees with my hands interlocked behind my head when officers arrive, give a brief statement that i'd been in fear for my life, and tell them that my lawyer will be there presently. if there's ANY gray in the story, that's where people get bubblegumed.

This is what I'm talking about. I'm smart enough to know if someone is trying to manipulate me into something. As stated in my earlier post, at that point I would end all communication.

 

[Stomper]

sheesh... this thread is devolving into a mental master "massaging" of "what-ifs"..... its almost like listening to martial arts geeks going through an endless litany of "what if moves/Kata's", and in the end ching-ching-pow negates all of it.

The bottom line is almost none of you will actually know what you'll do if the worst ever happens... you have shock (especially afterwards), emotions (anger, regret, fear), adrenaline, second thoughts/guessing, skewed perception (yours and the investigators'), possible physical injuries to yourself, "collateral damage" issues, etc.


Just make sure you are disciplined enough to ONLY enact a CLEAN SHOOT, no jury will convict you for a CLEAN SHOOT.



Don't mean to sound arrogant, but what I say is true.

 

[HollisOR]

Render aid to a person that was going to harm or kill you?

Do you really want to be in reach of this person?

Are you a medic? Can you actually help this person or make it worse?

Again,if you just shot me,I'm gunna try to do bad things to you.Now give me some drugs and a little liquor,what do think I might try?

Don't touch the person unless you are willing to give him a second chance to harm you.

My words "If you can render aid, do so." My life experiences are probably different than you. That is also why I mentioned; "Again, even disregard this post, get real legal advice from a real lawyer. Most people only talk to lawyers after the fact." I would probably handle things differently that other people. That is only pointing out we are all different with different skill sets. There are probably people who should never have a firearm for self defense. Some people are professional victims. I really don't know what I would do, until it happens. I do have a good bag of tricks/tools and what I use will depends on how it unfolds.

As you pointed our with some questions, yes there are more to this in what I meant by "can render". If you can not, then don't.

 

[The B]

sheesh... this thread is devolving into a mental master "massaging" of "what-ifs"..... its almost like listening to martial arts geeks going through an endless litany of "what if moves/Kata's", and in the end ching-ching-pow negates all of it.

The bottom line is almost none of you will actually know what you'll do if the worst ever happens... you have shock (especially afterwards), emotions (anger, regret, fear), adrenaline, second thoughts/guessing, skewed perception (yours and the investigators'), possible physical injuries to yourself, "collateral damage" issues, etc.


Just make sure you are disciplined enough to ONLY enact a CLEAN SHOOT, no jury will convict you for a CLEAN SHOOT.



Don't mean to sound arrogant, but what I say is true.

what you say is obvious, and beside the point.

gun owners are notorious for what-iffing, but you DO need to, so's you can work these things out in your mind ahead of time. if you think it through, bounce it off other guys, and come to some solid conclusions about some important things, you will always fare better when confronted with any nervous situation. ALWAYS.

 

[HollisOR]

what you say is obvious, and beside the point.

gun owners are notorious for what-iffing, but you DO need to, so's you can work these things out in your mind ahead of time. if you think it through, bounce it off other guys, and come to some solid conclusions about some important things, you will always fare better when confronted with any nervous situation. ALWAYS.

I think training is the best solution. I don't mean playing with a firearm but some well planned training. Having a firearm only means a person has one. Being proficient in it's use is another thing. Finding a good CHL class or some good instructors will help. Even doing competitive shoots will help.

 

[PBinWA]

I doubt many lawyers will drop everything and come to the scene of a shooting. I suspect you will be told by the lawyer to not say anything to the Police and they will meet you where ever the police choose to "detain" you. Be prepared to wait a long time for your lawyer to show up.

 

[Vaultman]

I noticed no one really answered your question. I wonder the same thing. Maybe there should be a sticky started for lawyers who will be good to call in the event of a need. Someone got Saul Goodmans #? (thats sorta sarcasm)

I also think its funny to see all this extra talk about going beyond an initial shoot to "make sure they are dead". I know Ive seen enough bad TV investigative news shows to know that they would be able to figure out what happened no matter your story, and when they go to dig into your history, everything said here is on the record.

Still no one has answered. A guy asks one simple question. I guess I have to answer it myself. I have not personally talked to an attorney about this issue. But I wonder who has talked to one. And who has an upstanding relationship with one that you could call them in the event that this happens?

 

[The B]

I think training is the best solution. I don't mean playing with a firearm but some well planned training. Having a firearm only means a person has one. Being proficient in it's use is another thing. Finding a good CHL class or some good instructors will help. Even doing competitive shoots will help.

im not talking about firearm handling ability- i'm talking about what to do AFTER the shooting, and you're somehow still standing and not bleeding.

ABSOLUTELY training is the key to the gunfight part. as you say- legit training. training to gunfight, not standing around casually taking aim with one eye closed and your tongue between your lips. but that's not what THIS thread is about..

 

[darkminstrel]

I did, in fact, answer part of the question. I have not spoken to a defense attorney about this particular situation so I did not attempt to address the second point you began to discuss. Others have also answered in their own way.

In truth I believe that you're seeking direct advice from someone who has
1) Been a lawyer in such a case
2) Been the defendant in such a case
3) Spoken to a lawyer ahead of time about such a case
4) Been a second party(wife/husband) and partially involved in such a case.
Since the other part has been answered in many different ways with similar intent I can only surmise that the first portion of the query isn't as important you.

 

[HollisOR]

im not talking about firearm handling ability- i'm talking about what to do AFTER the shooting, and you're somehow still standing and not bleeding.

ABSOLUTELY training is the key to the gunfight part. as you say- legit training. training to gunfight, not standing around casually taking aim with one eye closed and your tongue between your lips. but that's not what THIS thread is about..

Agree, I would think a good CHL class would cover the aftermath of a shooting. The dos and don'ts. Also, discussing this with a lawyer ahead of time to insure that ones rights are protected and that what a person says can not be used against them.