Saving your neighbor's property. Kyle, Greg, Travis, and Roddie - which one are you?

[Provincial]

Legally speaking you are allowed to use deadly force if you suspect the building being set on fire has living occupants inside. Although I think the liberal Oregon courts would see it differently.

In Oregon the following laws apply:
Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person
https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_161.219

ORS 161.225
Use of physical force in defense of premises
https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_161.225

Basically, you can use physical force to defend against arson in Oregon. You can use it protect property if you are "A person in lawful possession or control of premises" And you cannot use it to protect persons

"unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:

(1)

Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or

(2)

Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or

(3)

Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person. [1971 c.743 §23]"

I think the wording of the protect persons law was phrased in the negative to discourage people from doing it. I think the Legislature would prohibit it if the tradition, history, case law, and Natural Law didn't overwhelmingly endorse the right to self-defense and the defense of others.

 

[Knobgoblin]

And they both did!

I miss the 90s.

Even with rampant HPV , good times

 

[sobo]

I miss the 90s.

Even with rampant HPV , good times

The early 80s were a phuq'n h00t, too, until that damned AIDS/HIV came along. Took the fun outta 1-nighters literally overnight...

You see what I did there?

 

[ma96782]

The funny part is that "super cute" officer would have likely arrested you without a second thought when your potential confrontation with the guy, someone who you had no legal cause to confront, turned violent, possibly ending with you discharging your firearm during the interaction to defend yourself. Despite your viewpoints, this would likely be viewed by the prosecuting attorney as you being the aggressor and face charges as a result.

Any attorney would cringe reading your account.

Cute cop aside. Humm.....sounds like A.A. case without the racial tones? BUT, But, but.....AND, I'm NOT saying that they are the same thing. Yup.....details will differ.

Aloha, Mark

 

[ma96782]

Oakland security guard has died from a bullet wound he suffered after the retired cop was shot while he protected reporters at the scene of an armed robbery in the crime-ravaged Bay Area
Kevin Nibubbleguma, a father of two and grandfather of three, was on assignment to guard the KRON4 team as it was reporting on the latest smash-and-grab raid in California on Wednesday when a robber targeted the TV crew for their cameras.
Nibubbleguma, a former police officer, confronted one of 12 masked robbers to protect the reporters, and the thief shot him in the lower abdomen. He was rushed to Highland Hospital to undergo surgery, but died on Saturday morning.
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...

So, I don't exactly know about CA law.

That being said.......thinking about the Felony Murder Rule. Which attitude do you think should/will prevail?

ALL of those other people involved are now wanted as Felony Murder suspects. Get the gas chamber ready.
Or will it be.....
My baby didn't do nothing. Except maybe, steal a little something. And of course, you'll have to prove that too.

Aloha, Mark

 

[ma96782]

And she could have played Cops & Robbers with you!
Really fun game, trust me...

View attachment 1078186

That could/would also depend on where you've hidden the loot....and if she will be the one retrieving it.



Please, be gentle.

Aloha, Mark

 

[rjmt]

I'm not sure why you would think I was talking to or about you. I assure you, I was not. Moreover, your situation is obviously different from what I described.

sorry, I've become a grumpy old man
my neighbor told me this week he finally bought a 9mm
as I was out putting up the geese at sunset, I observed a green laser through the trees and heard shots from his new 9mm
glad to see he's also practicing at night

 

[rjmt]

So, I don't exactly know about CA law.

That being said.......thinking about the Felony Murder Rule. Which attitude do you think should/will prevail?

ALL of those other people involved are now wanted as Felony Murder suspects. Get the gas chamber ready.
Or will it be.....
My baby didn't do nothing. Except maybe, steal a little something. And of course, you'll have to prove that too.

Aloha, Mark

what is disturbing is that these smash and grab crews are now armed and baiting and attacking TV news crews
the TV crew showed up at a previous crime location and were attacked by a crew waiting for them
I looked into this - the shooters were attacking the TV crew to steal their equipment - and this is not the first time in the Bay Area
fortunately this was in Oakland and not under the Soros backed D.A. in San Francisco

 

[ma96782]

what is disturbing is that these smash and grab crews are now armed and baiting and attacking TV news crews
the TV crew showed up at a previous crime location and were attacked by a crew waiting for them
I looked into this - the shooters were attacking the TV crew to steal their equipment - and this is not the first time in the Bay Area
fortunately this was in Oakland and not under the Soros backed D.A. in San Francisco

BUT, But, but......you can't shoot.....IF, it's only a property crime.

BTW......ROBBERY is considered a Crime Against The Person. And of course.....different places will have different statutes as to when deadly force is permissible or not.

Aloha, Mark

 

[awshoot]

Which one of these heroes are you? What lengths will you go to to defend your neighbor's property? Who will you encourage to come along for your adventures? Asking for me and for friends in Laurelhurst.

I would hazard a guess that a good number of self-defense situations begin with a "bad" decision -- in Kyle's case seeking to prevent barbarian hordes from burning down his town because the authorities couldn't stomach giving Trump a "win" by sending in the National Guard.

In the McMichaels/Roddie case, trying to protect their community struck by a sudden severe crime wave about which the authorities we pay to handle these sorts of things, would not commit the resources necessary to solve the problem.

But yes, if you want to avoid being chewed up and spit out by the machinery of the state, the best course of action is to avoidance. Honestly, avoidance is what I'll be doing but I also feel great empathy toward those who do step in and get destroyed for it, as well as for all those people the criminals prey upon, who just want to run their little shops and let their kids play in the yard. But no, I'm not going to help them.

 

[OldBroad44]

The problem i have with your assessment is that in all i followed him for 15 minutes the police were busy looking for a hit and run driver who was possibly driving high/drunk so they didn't prioritize an active home invasion.

And guess what turns out this was the guy who had also done the hit and run, so weather they appreciated my help or not, they got it. And my neighbor to one side who is a single woman In her 70s, and my neighbors to my other side who are a young couple with a 1 year old, don't have to worry that this A-hole is going to come back and invade their home.

It could have gone bad but it didn't, as far as me being the aggressor, I kept enough distance between us that he would have had to make a very conscious effort to get after me and at that point it makes him the aggressor 100%.

Not being followed is a right permitted to those not actively comiting felonies, at the time I didn't know about his hit and run but I did witness him trying to force entry into my across the street neighbors home, and that's enough for me.


We as a people and a society should look out for each other more, even in this scenario the deciding factor for me was my car being vandalized, this should not have been a factor but it was, I should have wanted to intervene based solely on what I witnessed him doing.

But regardless of motive, I feel I did the right thing, no one is hurt and only a multiple felony went to jail, so no harm no foul.

Hi @PaulF .
At the time you called the cops the attempted but failed home invasion was no longer active. The guy had fled with apparently no harm done. So no surprise cops put finding the fleeing hit and run driver first priority. He had at least damaged cars and maybe also people. The fact that the guy you were chasing had just committed a hit and run doesn't change the legal situation. Even if it had been your own home he tried to invade, once he ran away that incident was legaly over. When you chased and followed him you became the aggressor in a new incident. And since he was in your neighborhood only because he was in the area when he crashed and fled, he presumably did not vandalize your car in some earlier visit. and would have been unlikely to be in your neighborhood again, so never would have posed any risk to your neighbors. Most likely the hit and run guy would have been caught without your help, at least if he had a license and wasnt in a stolen car. So you needn't pat yourself on the head over that. You were lucky the cops didn't arrest and cuff and search you just to keep you out of the way, since you obviously were at the least a wild card. And cops mostly don't like vigilantes.

You don't seem to understand what is and isn't self defense. Or the difference in status and perogatives between yourself and cops. My favorite book on this is the old classic In the Gravest Extreme, by Maasad Ayoob. A good concealed weapons course will spend huge amounts of time on this. Take your case to such a course and ask the instructor for his perspective.

If you held your distance so that it seemed the bad guy would not attack you without it being clear he was attacking you, that does muddy the waters. But you started off chasing him, and after he was too tired to run any more he might have felt he had no choice. At the best, you might, had you killed him, had a weak messy legal case for SD. And who knows how the jury would rule?

Please take a good course and get your CHP before running around with a concealed gun again. There are things in such courses you need to know.

As for whether you did the "right" thing...that's actually a lot more complicated than the issue of legal jeopardy. And all I've been talking about is legal jeopardy. Puck puck puck! (That's my mother hen noises. I can tell you're a good guy, and don't want you getting in trouble 'cause you got overexuberant.)

Unless you know all the parties personally and know the whole story, its hard to know who is or isn't the bad guy. For example, I once had a neighbor who said her boyfriend beat her and she had dumped him. Then at a block party I saw her with a new boyfriend, and she was doing everything she could to teach the new boy friend to beat her!!! He was younger and clearly confused . She was slapping his face too softly to be assault, but meant to be publically humiliating, calling him a weakling, making it obvious she wanted to be hit. That she would respect him and consider him a man only if he hit her. And it was totally obvious this young man had never hit a woman in his life, and was confused. And his being a little drunk didn't help. Not seeing this training first, if I saw him at some point beating her, I'd have assumed the young man was the bad guy. I woulda probably sent my dog in to break it up, and been willing to testify against the young man. (My dog was a good protection dog but also expert at breaking up fights between dogs or livestock by disciplining the aggressor/bigger critter by growling fiercely and hitting, not biting them with her teeth, as mother dogs do to discipline pups. In this sort if situation she would probably have started with a fake charge and ended the fight without getting closer than about six feet. Still a risk if one had a gun. Breaking up a beating like this is notoriously dangerous because the woman often turns on the rescuer.) But not after seeing her train young man to be a wife beater. Who exactly was the victim? Before that, I would have assumed that it was her. Now I would tend to think it was him. She might be the victim of a current beating. He might be the victim of having his character damaged by her, possibly permenently. Whatever, it was way more complex than I thought. And not anything I would put my dog at risk to intervene in. Just too complicated.

 

[PaulF]

Cute cop aside. Humm.....sounds like A.A. case without the racial tones? BUT, But, but.....AND, I'm NOT saying that they are the same thing. Yup.....details will differ.

Aloha, Mark

No racial tones, and I never produced or pointed a firearm at the guy, as well I asked (the dispatcher) about the results of if I detained him physically, was told not to, and I complied.

So I never attempted a "citizens arrest" nor did I instigate any kind of physical altercation, I followed but never impeded his travel, I let him lead the way and relayed our travel to the dispatcher.

 

[PaulF]

what is disturbing is that these smash and grab crews are now armed and baiting and attacking TV news crews
the TV crew showed up at a previous crime location and were attacked by a crew waiting for them
I looked into this - the shooters were attacking the TV crew to steal their equipment - and this is not the first time in the Bay Area
fortunately this was in Oakland and not under the Soros backed D.A. in San Francisco

A similar situation where rioters attacked TV crews in Portland happened recently too, maybe it'll switch up the BS narrative some of them report when they are the actual victims.

 

[ma96782]

No racial tones, and I never produced or pointed a firearm at the guy, as well I asked (the dispatcher) about the results of if I detained him physically, was told not to, and I complied.

So I never attempted a "citizens arrest" nor did I instigate any kind of physical altercation, I followed but never impeded his travel, I let him lead the way and relayed our travel to the dispatcher.

I wonder.....IF the A.A. case might have ended differently.....if the police dispatcher had given "better" instructions?

Aloha, Mark

PS.....I could be completely wrong.....though I thought I heard....that the call had been made to the police BEFORE the shooting.

That being said......when cell phones first started to become popular. There were many calls to 911 from citizens claiming that they were following drunk and speeding drivers. Imagine the liability?

 

[Mono1]

Your one piece scope mount is on backwards it appears.

OK but, as long as its Zeroed.....

 

[sobo]

I observed a green laser through the trees and heard shots from his new 9mm
glad to see he's also practicing at night

I hope he knows his backstop...

 

[No_Regerts]

If we're playing Ninja Turtles: Rafael
Ghostbusters: Peter
Goonies: Sloth

 

[rjmt]

BUT, But, but......you can't shoot.....IF, it's only a property crime.

BTW......ROBBERY is considered a Crime Against The Person. And of course.....different places will have different statutes as to when deadly force is permissible or not.

Aloha, Mark

I agree, if I look out my window and someone is stealing my chainsaw or truck, I can't shoot out the window
but if I inject myself into the situation and the intruder does not turn and walk away without my property, then the situation is different
if some one is taking my $800 Stihl chain saw out of the barn, I'm not staying in the house (motion sensors)
if such an intruder drops the chain saw and walks past me - then I let him be on his way
by Washington state law, I am allowed to take my Mossberg Shockwave out to defend my property, one can defend "real property" on your own land up here
no aggressive threat, but an angry old guy with a short barreled shotgun tends to discourage intruders without actual violence

 

[Mono1]

If there's a scream that's different. Even then though my "territory" only extends to the houses immediately adjacent to my own. Too complex otherwise. In MA I was in bed in a rooming house and heard a woman scream, suddenly cut off.

I understand that. But.

In my training we were taught about an incident where a black man was chasing a half-naked woman who was screaming "he wants to kill me!". Good Samaritan shot him.

Turned out the black guy was an undercover cop chasing a drug dealer.

Situational awareness.

 

[Mono1]

That's worked at least twice for one night stands , and at least one girlfriend.

Wait. What??