Safety considerations while carrying

[CLT65]

I hesitate to post about this because it's a subject that has a strong possibility to go in any number of bad directions. If any mod feels it's not appropriate or it's going sideways, I won't feel at all offended if it's moved or locked. Please, Please, if posting to this thread, I'd very much rather avoid inappropriate racial or cop bashing comments.

An acquaintance and I were talking guns. He said he has a pistol, but he has no interest in ever carrying it or getting a CHL, because if a police officer ever saw him with it he would be shot dead because he is black.

He's a law-abiding, hard working family man, no criminal record (passed his BGC), seems like a good guy. He has a very strong negative opinion of police officers, I guess because of where he grew up. Personally I respect police officers in general (and have friends in that line of work), but I can respect his opinion and the fact that if he doesn't feel he should carry then he probably shouldn't, and I find it difficult to understand the fear that "the cops" are going to shoot him over nothing. He even jokes about how cops love to shoot minorities, and get high-fives from their peers and medals from their superiors when they do. Personally I find that very offensive, but like I said, he seems like a good guy, and I'd like to try to understand his perspective. I'd like to think that a law abiding person of any ethnicity should be able to exercise their right to bear arms without fear (whether real or imagined).

Growing up in rural Oregon, I was raised with a well-intentioned but likely naive perspective on racial issues. I understand that such issues are complex and many of us are likely to see them radically different. I don't care to delve into all that, but I am curious if any others here have ever had similar fears, or if anyone feels he has anything to really worry about. My curiosity is sincere and I'm just trying to understand a different perspective. I doubt I'd ever be able to say anything to change his mind or lessen his hatred/fear of cops, but if anyone has any ideas, I'm open to suggestions.

Read More

 

[Flopsweat]

You can find statistics supporting that you are more or less likely to be shot by police based on race. One thing you won't find though, is evidence that anyone not resisting the police with violence is at all likely to be shot in the US. I can't help but think that Chris Rock's advice on a closely related subject might be a fun way to illustrate the point.

 

[Fishonshawn]

I get his point of view 100%. I'm a law abiding citizen. Army veteran. Only ever had 1 speeding ticket. I've had a few run ins with cops though and all were very negative. I live in the mid willamette valley for location reference. The cops I've delt with were complete aholes for no reason. I did absolutely nothing wrong yet they acted like I was a criminal. It was such a negative experience that it stopped me from pursuing a career in law enforcement. I have a buddy who became a state trooper a couple years back and he said I should try as well as he thought I'd make a good cop but all I could think about was what if I get stuck working with the same kind of cops I had to deal with before. No thanks. I appreciate the good ones and do respect the hell out of what they do and what they deal with on a daily basis but not all citizens are bad or criminals but some cops act like they are. A good cop should know when they need to buckle down but also be able to deal with the general public in a positive manner. You dont need to understand your friends fear and hate for cops. Everyone has had different experiences.

 

[BSG 75]

Your friend probably keeps up with the news more than you do.

2 Portland State University Officers Cleared In Jason Washington Shooting

UPDATE (Sept. 14, 2018 5:59 p.m. PT) – A grand jury has decided not to criminally charge two Portland State University campus police officers implicated in the first officer-involved shooting at the university.

Public safety officers Shawn McKenzie and James Dewey were under investigation for their roles in the June 29 shooting death of 45-year-old Jason Washington, a legally armed black man who witnesses say was trying to break up a fight in the moments leading up to his death. The grand jury determined the fatal shooting was a lawful act of self-defense and/or the defense of a third person.

Keyaira Smith, a witness who filmed the encounter, said Washington was "trying to be a good Samaritan" and break up a fight that had broken out among a group of men on the sidewalk outside the Cheerful Tortoise bar. University police arrived on the scene, Smith said, but did not appear to try to stop the fight.

Smith said Washington, who had a gun attached to his right side, tripped while trying to break up the fight.

"The gun slipped out of the holster when he had fallen, and I think he may have tried to retrieve it," Smith said. "Then they said 'gun.'"

That's when police fired, she said.

"There was absolutely no hesitation at all," Smith said. "[The officer] went straight for his gun."
2 Portland State University Officers Cleared In Jason Washington Shooting

The Alabama mall shooting highlights the dangers of owning a gun while black
Nov. 26, 2018

When Emantic "E.J." Fitzgerald Bradford Jr., a 21-year-old black man, heard gunfire at Alabama's Riverchase Galleria mall on Thanksgiving night, he tried to flee. But when police arrived on the scene, they shot and killed Bradford, issuing a now-retracted statement incorrectly identifying the young man as the gunman.

Now, the local police department is suggesting that Bradford would be alive if he hadn't been carrying his licensed firearm.

Police in Hoover, Alabama, initially praised the "heroic" officers involved in the shooting of Bradford, who they claimed had shot an 18-year-old man following a dispute and struck a 12-year-old girl with a stray bullet. But a day later, the police department said that while it was possible Bradford was involved "in some aspect of the altercation," he did not fire the shots that started the mall incident.

As Vox's German Lopez explains, Bradford did appear to have a gun. But he was licensed to carry a firearm, and it's not illegal in Alabama to carry a gun in public. Witnesses have also told a lawyer representing Bradford's family that, contrary to the official police account of the incident, Bradford never drew his weapon.

The Alabama mall shooting highlights the dangers of owning a gun while black

Black Bouncer Killed by Cops Responding to Bar Shooting
Nov. 12, 2018

A black security guard was mistakenly fired upon and killed by police who were responding to a shooting at an Illinois bar early Sunday. Per WGN, Jemel Roberson was the armed bouncer at Manny's Blue Room Bar in Robbins, where witnesses reportedly said he asked some drunk men to leave before one of them returned and began firing a gun. Roberson returned fire and was able to apprehend one of the men involved before the situation took an even darker turn. According to NBC News, local police arrived soon after and fatally shot the 26-year-old. Midlothian police Chief Daniel Delaney released a statement saying an investigation by the Cook County Sheriff's Police is ongoing. The officer who fired the fatal shot has been placed on paid administrative leave. Four non-life threatening injuries were also reported from the incident. Meanwhile, attorneys for Roberson's family said they filed a federal civil rights lawsuit Monday citing "wrongful death." (The family of a Texas man killed in his own home by an off-duty cop has also filed suit.)

Black Bouncer Killed by Cops Responding to Bar Shooting

Shooting of Philando Castile

On July 6, 2016, Philando Castile, a 32-year-old black American, was pulled over while driving in Falcon Heights, Minnesota, and killed by Jeronimo Yanez, a St. Anthony, Minnesota police officer. Castile had been driving a car at 9:00 pm with his girlfriend, Diamond Reynolds, and her four-year-old daughter when he was pulled over by Yanez and another officer in a suburb of Saint Paul, MN. After being asked for his license and registration, Castile gave him his proof of insurance card, which Yanez appeared to glance at and tuck in his outer pocket. Castile then calmly informed Yanez: "Sir, I have to tell you that I do have a firearm on me." Quoting the Star Tribune description of the next 13 seconds of the video:

Before Castile completed the sentence, Yanez interrupted and calmly replied, "OK," and placed his right hand on the holster of his own holstered weapon. Yanez said, "Okay, don't reach for it, then ... don't pull it out." Castile responded, "I'm not pulling it out," and Reynolds also said, "He's not pulling it out." Yanez repeated, raising his voice, "Don't pull it out!" as he quickly pulled his own gun with his right hand and reached inside the driver's window with his left hand. Reynolds screamed, "No!" Yanez removed his left arm from the car and fired seven shots in the direction of Castile in rapid succession. Reynolds yelled, "You just killed my boyfriend!" Castile moaned and said, "I wasn't reaching for it." Reynolds loudly said, "He wasn't reaching for it." Before she completed her sentence, Yanez again screamed, "Don't pull it out!" Reynolds responded, "He wasn't." Yanez yelled, "Don't move! F**k!"

The shooting achieved a high profile from a live-streamed video on Facebook made by Reynolds in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. In the video, she is talking with Yanez while a mortally injured Castile lies slumped over, moaning slightly and his left arm and side bloody. The Hennepin County Medical Examiner's office said that Castile had sustained multiple gunshot wounds and reported that he died at 9:37 p.m. in the Hennepin County Medical Center, about 20 minutes after being shot.

On November 16, 2016, John Choi, the Ramsey County Attorney, announced that Yanez was being charged with three felonies: one count of second-degree manslaughter and two counts of dangerous discharge of a firearm. Choi said, "I would submit that no reasonable officer knowing, seeing, and hearing what Officer Yanez did at the time would have used deadly force under these circumstances." Yanez was acquitted of all charges on June 16, 2017. The same day, the City of Saint Anthony fired Yanez.

Shooting of Philando Castile - Wikipedia

 

[CLT65]

Believe me, I have seen bad behavior by police. Unfortunately they have to hire from the human population, and some people in law enforcement do not have the personality, mentality, or proper motivation to be in law enforcement. I also have very good friends in law enforcement, and reject the notion that all cops want to do is shoot minorities. A few tragic instances of poor judgement and bad behavior by cops isn't going to change my view on that.

 

[thereddog]

Have you seen about the robot cop? Seriously, It has tasers, A.I., facial recognition, cameras (of course) It weighs over 300 lbs and looks like the head of a missile.

How much longer until the ones doing the enforcing are no longer human?

How much longer until they are equipped with more than tasers? I know it seems like conspiracy crackpot stuff, but it is going on now.

 

[BSG 75]

I find it difficult to understand the fear that "the cops" are going to shoot him over nothing.

I am curious if any others here have ever had similar fears, or if anyone feels he has anything to really worry about. My curiosity is sincere and I'm just trying to understand a different perspective. I doubt I'd ever be able to say anything to change his mind or lessen his hatred/fear of cops, but if anyone has any ideas, I'm open to suggestions.

I also have very good friends in law enforcement, and reject the notion that all cops want to do is shoot minorities. A few tragic instances of poor judgement and bad behavior by cops isn't going to change my view on that.

First you said you were sincerely curious about why your friend feels the way he does and were trying to understand a different perspective, then when presented with examples of why your friend might feel the way he does, you said you aren't going to change your view. Maybe just accept that your friend might have good reason to feel the way he does, that you don't feel the same way, and leave it at that. He has a right to his opinion, and he isn't necessarily wrong just because you don't agree.

 

[Fishonshawn]

Believe me, I have seen bad behavior by police. Unfortunately they have to hire from the human population, and some people in law enforcement do not have the personality, mentality, or proper motivation to be in law enforcement. I also have very good friends in law enforcement, and reject the notion that all cops want to do is shoot minorities. A few tragic instances of poor judgement and bad behavior by cops isn't going to change my view on that.

Seriously? Why do you have such a hard time understanding your friends concern when you say this yourself. And your last sentence pretty much says you arent even going to try, or are capable of understanding your friend so this thread is pointless.

 

[Flymph]

Tell him if he had a gun on him at least he could shoot back...

 

[Certaindeaf]

The movie "The Jerk" is an awesome documentary about being born a poor black child. I highly recommended watching it.

 

[ma96782]

"An acquaintance and I were talking guns. He said he has a pistol, but he has no interest in ever carrying it or getting a CHL, because if a police officer ever saw him with it he would be shot dead because he is black."

Rrrrright…….cause it's well known that it's only the COPS who have a problem.

Aloha, Mark

 

[slimmer13]

Ugh. instances of legally armed individuals being shot for no reason by police are extremely rare regardless of color. Are legally armed black people shot at a rate disproportionate to white people? Maybe a little, maybe not, but their color may not necessarily be the factor.

No matter what color you are, if you interact with the police in a calm, polite manner and make slow deliberate motions, you're probably going to be just fine.

I think the bigger issue are the race hustlers and a culture of teaching people that they are victims.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Are there cases of someone being shot by law enforcement because of :
The color of their skin...
Where they are at or come from...
Who they are with at the time...
Of course.

With that said...
Is it as commonplace as the media can make it out to be...?
I would say no.

Would I feel the same if I had different experiences in life or was of a different race , perhaps.
But that is a moot point , because in the words of Popeye : "I am who I am".
I can try to understand another point of view...but that is not the same as fully comprehending someone else and their experiences.

Relying solely on our experiences and perceptions , without taking into account the current situation that we are in , can blind us to what is actually happening...
Or an over use of our experiences and perceptions , can also at times , lead up into the same jam , that one is trying to avoid...In a sense validating a belief or preconceived outcome , by actions or notions of ours that are subconscious.
Andy

 

[orygun]

Growing up in rural Oregon, I was raised with a well-intentioned but likely naive perspective on racial issues.

Yup! That's me, too.
Being a white boy raised (originally) in eastern Oregon, I had absolutely no clue that life for a black man would be any different than for a white man. I might have seen something on the nightly news, but that was an isolated incident, right?
As an adult I learned about things like racial profiling. I also saw why it worked to lessen crime in certain areas (right or wrong, just making a point). So, being a black man means that, like it or not, he's going to be eyeballed more than I am. I often wonder how I would be treated, or seen by law enforcement if I ever have to use my gun. I never thought that just carrying a gun would be threat to my safety, but I don't know what it's like to wear that racial bias.

If he was my friend, especially if he has family, I would try to convince him to reconsider the decision to not get a CHL, even if he doesn't plan on carrying.
Other than that, agree to disagree. It's not like the subject is trying to convince OP to give up his guns!

 

[soberups]

Your friend has a valid point.
Even the most well-intentioned cops can have implicit bias. Its part of the human condition and very difficult to overcome.

 

[bgdawgrr]

In my experience, there was only one time any officer freaked out about a weapon legally carried by me.
I got pulled over in a well known, bs speed trap area. Officer approached the car. This is about 92 when concealed carry waist packs where the thing and I was a year or two into being able to carry. I took my pack off and took out my papers, set the pack in passenger seat, clearly visible.
Officer was talking to me about speed etc and about to let me on my way when suddenly he glances at the passenger seat as I'm putting you registration and insurance back in the glove box and DIVES into my window over me to grab the bag. He asks "do you have a gun in here?" Yes. "Do you have a permit?" Yes. "I'll be back."
25 min later, after another officer arrives, he comes back, gives me my stuff and I'm free to go.
I asked why the freak out? Our interaction was concluded and imo, he was in way more danger approaching my car when he could have been ambushed. His response was that all he thought of was GUN and reacted. He apologized but it's an hour of my life I'll never get back.
Imo, I'd always rather carry than not. I believe having a permit has helped with my encounters with police much more than anything (except when driving into Canada, but that's another story), and scary police can get you killed either way.
Yes DWB IS a thing.
In my daily life, concern of the police is minimal compared to what I consider threats. But I can say I always pray for a positive encounter when I see the blue lights come on.

 

[No_Regerts]

Roughly 1,000,000 commissioned LE nationwide.

Each working an average of 174 hours per month, 12 months per year.

Thats 2,088,000,000 hours of policing per year.

987 people killed by police in 2017, 998 in 2018, an average of 1 death per 2,100,000 hours of policing. Since 2015, the average is 985 per year with 2018 being the highest (even after a few years of intense scrutiny).

22% black male
44% white male
18% hispanic male
16% everything else

These numbers hold fairly constant. The might go down a bit when the economy is good, go up a little when the economy is bad, but stay within a narrow spread.

If police were out looking to kill black men, don't you think the numbers of black men killed would have gone way down over the last few years since the media has been beating that drum? Instead, the number of people of any race that officers perceived as needing shooting has remained constant....

 

[BSG 75]

Ugh. instances of legally armed individuals being shot for no reason by police are extremely rare regardless of color.

Extremely rare? With just a few minutes of searching I found one incident in September and two incidents in November just LAST YEAR (2018), one of them right here in Oregon.

Are legally armed black people shot at a rate disproportionate to white people? Maybe a little, maybe not, but their color may not necessarily be the factor.

All four victims I showed earler were black. Did you hear of any legally armed non-black people being killed by police during the same time period?

No matter what color you are, if you interact with the police in a calm, polite manner and make slow deliberate motions, you're probably going to be just fine.

That's not very reassuring when the alternative outcome to being "just fine" is being shot dead.

In all four cases the four (black) victims probably would still be alive if they had NOT been carrying a firearm. That's probably why the OP's friend feels the way he does. Remember, the OP said his friend was joking when he said the police are out to shoot minorities, but his friend is a black man who certainly can't ignore what has happened relatively recently to legally armed black men.

 

[clearconscience]

If it was me I would get him in and meet LEOs. You see them atound. Coffee shops, restaurants, events.
Have him start the conversation.
The more he interacts with LEOs the more he will see they are just like everyone else.
Have him discuss his interests in a CHL, ect.

In my view it's more how you act or react to LEOs that gets the wrong attention.

If you're Black and live in an inner city your risk may be higher.

If he's carrying and is stopped by LEOs the first thing he should say is I have a carry permit, while keeping his hands in plain view.
If pulled over you should have get your license and CHL out before the LEO gets out of his car, hold them with both hands out the window.

He needs to see it as a chance to help change LEOs perception of a law abiding Balck male, who supports his 2nd Amendment.

Unfortunately people perceive their situational awareness by how people look.
If you look like a hood, you probably are.
If you have an attitude, your probably hiding something.

This goes for any race or ethnicity.

And like situations where black citizens were shot, ie. Jason Washington, and the situations listed above,
Don't be stupid, don't be a hero, and don't be drinking while carrying.

Your duty as a citizen carrying a firearm is to be above the moral standards of the average citizen.
Let the LEOs be heroes.
Don't mix drugs/alcohol and guns.
Be smart, courteous, and repectful in LEO interactions.
If near trouble, remove yourself so you don't become part of it.
Deescalate.
Have strong moral and legal character in all aspects of life.

 

[No_Regerts]

As a little anecdote, I can count the number of black men I've ever had at gunpoint on my fingers.

I dont think I could count the number of white men Ive had at gunpoint per year on my fingers and toes.

Do I hate white folks? No.